Public Universities Don't Want Science Students To Believe In God

a reply to: saint4God

When do you have to use faith as a biochemist and why?

originally posted by: Woodcarver
So one way to meet god is to almost kill yourself?

Since we'll be meeting God when we die, I was looking to expedite the process if that's what it took. It was a stupid thing for me to do and the worst way to go about it. Also, there's nothing saying that there would be an intervention. He could have just let me go to Hell and be done with me, I'd be no less than deserving of it for trying to force the issue.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
You never did say whether doctors were involved with saving your life.

Not for me, sorry if I was unclear. I was seriously considering it but didn't act upon it.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
You're a friggin chemist and you don't understand trans-species evolution?

Understanding is easy. Presenting data, verifying and replicating the experiment according to The Scientific Method is where the hypothesis fails.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
You do know that whales used to have legs?

Taxonomy, imagination and creativity aside, what's the genetic mechanism? We cannot even begin to gather data without a proposed model first.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Would you consider that enough change to admit that it used to be a dif species?

It'd be a good start. As an aside, many Christians believe God used evolution to create beings, I'm just not one who is convinced.

originally posted by: saint4God

originally posted by: Woodcarver
You're a friggin chemist and you don't understand trans-species evolution?

Understanding is easy. Presenting data, verifying and replicating the experiment according to The Scientific Method is where the hypothesis fails.

There is a mountain of evidence for evolution. You're not seriously denying this, are you?

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: saint4God
Although I couldn't say one way or another if theoretical physicist Dr. Kaku's details (as I don't understand them myself) are definitive proof of God, I find the article interesting:

Scientist says he found definitive proof that God exists

Some idiot at ageac.org... put a title over that video saying "Scientist says he found definitive proof that God exists.", but the title of the video on youtube says nothing about any proof, the video is called: "Michio Kaku: Is God a Mathematician?"

Michio Kaku is credited for helping develop string theory and he's questioning the relationship between string theory and God, but in fact string theory has never been proven, so he's just asking a "what if?" question. Kaku says:

Super symmetry, a symmetry that comes out of physics, not mathematics, and has shocked the world of mathematics. But you see, all this is pure mathematics and so the final resolution could be that God is a mathematician.

Or an artist could say "maybe God is an artist". These are just musings.

Agreed on all points except I don't think I'd call anyone an idiot. Maybe someone got over excited, but doesn't seem to provide any sort of proof as you say.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
As for the OP about university professors stance on religion, I don't see where it would ever come up in the normal course of teaching the subjects you mentioned, unless you badgered them into some off-topic discussion.

It certainly was not the case for two reasons: 1.) I was taught to give teachers/professors the respect of being the ones in charge and subject matter experts 2.) I don't badger anyone.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
Some scientists have religious beliefs and some don't. As long as their beliefs and teachings don't conflict with scientific observation (like Young Earth creationists who think the Earth is 6000 years old) there's not really a problem. As one scientist put it, students can believe the Earth is 6000 years old if they want to, but to pass the course, they need to be able to explain why scientists think that's not the case. They don't have to agree with the scientists to pass the course.

All true, and presented this way, there would've been no post by me using this title. I think you'd make an excellent science professor.

originally posted by: pryingopen3rdeye
this sounds like such an amazing story to read, would you mind posting it, how did the devil show was it an actual manifestation what did it look like how long did this go on for what sort of things occured etc etc etc, really you should make a thread about this, it would fascinate many.

I can send it in private message as soon as I find it, I wouldn't want to sidebar the conversation too much. It's about a page and a half long and would rather send than try to re-tell. The short answers are: the devil took a different form each time (probably whatever is most effective for him at the time), two weeks, and a lot of pursuit/threats that caused sleep deprivation.

originally posted by: pryingopen3rdeye
i get that thered be alot of haters pestering you in such a thread but honestly every thread has that, you can make a thread about your grandma's apple tree and haters will bash you for blah blah blah whatever, just tune em out and post it for the non haters. dont let hate hold you back.

though if still youd rather not post such a story id still love to read it if it came to me by pm (U2U)

I thought I did at one point but can't seem to find it at present. I've been on a kind of 'sabbatical' from ATS for a few years and thought the current topic would be a good one to discuss with the community.

originally posted by: masterp
a reply to: saint4God

There is no God and the proof is simple: in math, the operation "∞ + 1" cannot be defined.

In simple words, it goes like this:

A Being that is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent cannot create anything because the very act of creation destroys the omniscient and omnipresent properties.

How so?

originally posted by: GetHyped

originally posted by: andy06shake
Again i see that you refuse or are unwilling to explain why you disagree that there are similarities between the two.

Myself and others have, numerous times throughout this thread. But on the off-chance that it might sink in the 826th time round, let's go through this silly list of yours:

Science thinks humans are special

Science is a method. It has no thoughts or feelings. But let's be charitable and assume the author of this list means "scientists".

What scientists? Anthropologists, biologists and so on? Not at all. In fact, they'll be quick to point out that we're not some special snowflakes but are animals that have evolved over billions of years just like every other lifeform on this planet.

Religion, on the other hand, claims humans are not animals, but in fact are special little snowflakes for whom this world and all its life was created for them.

Strike 1

Science casts out heretics and persecutes all other religions.

Utter bollocks. New hypotheses are treated with appropriate skepticism until enough evidence comes in to make a compelling case. Case in point: plate tectonics, dark energy. Both theories were treated with deep skepticism, but once the evidence came in, the community accepted the findings.

Religion, on the other hand, will kill people who dare speak against their dogma.

Strike 2

Science reveres its own saints

...what?

Saint: a person acknowledged as holy or virtuous and regarded in Christian faith as being in heaven after death.

Name one single "saint" in science. The "I know you are but what am I?" defense doesn't cut it outside the playground.

Religion, on the other hand, literally has saints.

Strike 3

Science makes up stories to explain our origins

Er... no. Science draws conclusions from empirical evidence. Show me one "story" that science has "made up" to explain our origins.

Religion, on the other hand, literally has origin stories that are made up of whole cloth.

Strike 4

Science has its own code of ethics

So does nearly every discipline. I guess that my HR department is a religion because they have an ethics code we must adhere to /facepalm

Strike 5

Science has its own priesthood

Science is based on established dogmas

Er... no, it doesn't. But I guess this follows the theme of "make up a bunch of crap and attach religious language to it" in order to make the poor case that "science = religion lol".

Religion, on the other hand, literally has its own priesthood and dogmas.

Strike 6 & 7

Science will bend to accommodate modern trends

No, it doesn't. Science is driven solely by empirical evidence, regardless of whether or not you or anyone else likes the conclusions.

But huzza! We've found something science and religion have in common! Except that science won't kill you for it.

Most of science is unfounded

Science requires faith

Laughably stupid claims that I'm not even going to bother dignifying with a response.

Religion, on the other hand, has no evidence for their claims whatsoever and literally requires faith.

Strike 8 & 9

**********************************

So yeah, if this is your idea of a compelling argument, all I can do is laugh until my sides ache at the profound ignorance and comically bad "logic" that went into this.

*Claps*, Standing Ovation

I wanted to give you 10 stars, but the forum won't allow it lol...

Of course scientists have faith in science. It operates similarly to religion as it seems to alleviate some anxieties. I think research backs this up, somewhat. BUT having faith in something bears absolutely no relation to its truthfulness. Science just happens to be based on objective fact and its endurance owes itself in large part to this basis. So if one is to have faith, why not have faith in science? It might be the best faith a person can have.

Some references:
www.sciencedaily.com - Death anxiety increases atheists' unconscious belief in God...

"These findings may help solve part of the puzzle of why religion is such a persistent and pervasive feature of society. Fear of death is a near-universal human experience and religious beliefs are suspected to play an important psychological role in warding off this anxiety. As we now show, these beliefs operate at both a conscious and unconscious level, allowing even avowed atheists to unconsciously take advantage of them."

phys.org - Death anxiety prompts people to believe in intelligent design, reject evolution: research...

"Our results suggest that when confronted with existential concerns, people respond by searching for a sense of meaning and purpose in life," says Tracy. "For many, it appears that evolutionary theory doesn't offer enough of a compelling answer to deal with these big questions."

However, the research team saw reversed effects during the fourth study which had a new condition. Along with writings by Behe and Dawkins, there was an additional passage by Carl Sagan. A cosmologist and science writer, Sagan argues that naturalism – the scientific approach that underlies evolution, but not intelligent design – can also provide a sense of meaning. In response, these participants showed reduced belief in intelligent design after being reminded of their own mortality.

Tracy says, "These findings suggest that individuals can come to see evolution as a meaningful solution to existential concerns, but may need to be explicitly taught that taking a naturalistic approach to understanding life can be highly meaningful."

www.sciencedirect.com - Scientific faith: Belief in science increases in the face of stress and existential anxiety...

As predicted, rowers in the high-stress group reported greater belief in science. In Experiment 2, participants primed with mortality (vs. participants in a control condition) reported greater belief in science. In both experiments, belief in science was negatively correlated with religiosity. Thus, some secular individuals may use science as a form of “faith” that helps them to deal with stressful and anxiety-provoking situations.

Having anxiety is not a weakness, it's a fact of life. We deal with it differently. Some have more and some have less. We're humans.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: saint4God

Religion isn't blind, it can be tested, questioned, and verified with reproducible results. What's used for one can be applied to the other, especially 1 Thessalonians 5:21, "...but test them all; hold on to what is good..."

And what are these tests exactly?

Some tests can be easy, some test not so much. One easy example, "I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you." John 15:11-12. A good If-Then statement, if you love each other then your joy may be complete. Granted it's probably not an all-in-one day event (science rarely is), so it may take some practice but is also something we can try and evaluate. After practicing this command, is your joy complete? Conversely not following this command, is your joy incomplete? Gather data, repeat testing, have meetings, compare results, discuss, and conclude.

originally posted by: GetHyped

originally posted by: saint4God

originally posted by: Woodcarver
You're a friggin chemist and you don't understand trans-species evolution?

Understanding is easy. Presenting data, verifying and replicating the experiment according to The Scientific Method is where the hypothesis fails.

There is a mountain of evidence for evolution. You're not seriously denying this, are you?

No he is seriously denying it.

It's people like himself and others that trail behind him that makes me want to puke 2 pints of blood every single time these types of topics gets brought up.

Same things happens during the time when I was in college taking an Anthropology 101 course, when the professor starts teaching about Evolution and you can literally see the faces of religious devotees losing their minds... which annoyed me greatly as I was trying to understand at the same time why they would choose Anthropology in the first place.

In any case, sometimes you just want to throw a fossil on their heads and scream "Fossil"!!!! I'm also sick and tired of educating the numb nuts about Evolution by Natural Selection, it's extremely tiring and frustrating when they continuously fall into logic fallacies such as Circular Reasoning. God is real because of God so it must be by God...

NOVA Intelligent Design on trial.

You want to know why Religion should not be taught in schools? Here's a 1 hour and 40 min video on just why exactly the stupid # was rejected. It's extremely in depth, but I'm not so certain if some of these people will have the stomach to watch through the entire thing. It's extremely scientific as well, tells you exactly why the two topics should be Mutually Exclusive in school environments.

However, that doesn't mean that if you are a real/true Scientist, you cannot have Faith or that you're not supposed to belong to a certain religion. No one is saying that. What everyone is saying is, you don't use Faith or Religious ideals to conduct Scientific Experiments, nor do you mix the two things together to form an theory or come up with a hypothesis. Some of the greatest minds on this planet have strong religious believes, however, they don't go around telling people their theory is true because God said so or use religious believes as proofs of evidence...

Sometimes you just want the world to burn because we have so many crazy people on the opposite side of the spectrum it's not even funny..

I can't see this world carrying on for much longer. The implosion will be grand!

It's more backwards than anytime since Rome.

a reply to: GetHyped
Nice reply -- thanks, i was going to reply to his ridiculous ramblings, but just lost the will

a reply to: saint4God

I m not sure if it is the problem believing in GOD. Every person who does not believe in God (or at least thinks he doesn't believe it) should wake up early in the morning at 4 AM. Drive up to some hill seat down, relax and seat down. Wait for sunrise. At the sunrise, think about creation, think about the purpose of everything. Think about why this world exists, think about the universe, think about Sun you are looking at. If this doesn't make you start believing, there is some higher force, some higher being, some higher energy, some higher purpose of everything, GOD how we earthlings call it, I m afraid you are then a dumb scientist.

But I must also say there is, even more, dumber scientist who believe in religion, who blindly follow whatever they are told. Recently they are told that Muslim's are bad, but both religious believe in same GOD. That is so dumb. The problem with science is religion, not God.

originally posted by: saint4God

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: saint4God

Religion isn't blind, it can be tested, questioned, and verified with reproducible results. What's used for one can be applied to the other, especially 1 Thessalonians 5:21, "...but test them all; hold on to what is good..."

And what are these tests exactly?

Some tests can be easy, some test not so much. One easy example, "I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you." John 15:11-12. A good If-Then statement, if you love each other then your joy may be complete. Granted it's probably not an all-in-one day event (science rarely is), so it may take some practice but is also something we can try and evaluate. After practicing this command, is your joy complete? Conversely not following this command, is your joy incomplete? Gather data, repeat testing, have meetings, compare results, discuss, and conclude.

Love is a chemical reaction.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Now you think you talked to the devil?

More like he told me and chased me down. Not a lot of dialogue went on.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
What was yaweh and the devil doing for the 100,000 years when people believed in the 1,000's of other gods? You know, before judaism.

Probably much of the same unless we're talking before Satan was thrown out of heaven. May have been Satan's idea on the 1,000 of other gods confusion, it'd certainly fit his Modus operandi. There isn't really a 'before judaism' since it begins "in the beginning".

originally posted by: saint4God

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Now you think you talked to the devil?

More like he told me and chased me down. Not a lot of dialogue went on.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
What was yaweh and the devil doing for the 100,000 years when people believed in the 1,000's of other gods? You know, before judaism.

Probably much of the same unless we're talking before Satan was thrown out of heaven. May have been Satan's idea on the 1,000 of other gods confusion, it'd certainly fit his Modus operandi. There isn't really a 'before judaism' since it begins "in the beginning".

Doesn't sound like the father of lies. Doesn't he have the gift of words or something? Seems like aggressive stalking is a little tactless for him.

originally posted by: saadad
a reply to: saint4God


But I must also say there is, even more, dumber scientist who believe in religion, who blindly follow whatever they are told. Recently they are told that Muslim's are bad, but both religious believe in same GOD. That is so dumb. The problem with science is religion, not God.

This is the new sinister agenda to capture luke warm Christians and the like. Its a complete lie.

The history of Mohammad who was Anti-Christ to say the very least about that sicko who also said Allah has no Son which is in the Quran and butchered and raped Christians which Muslims still practice today by Mohammad's example and teachings.

Muslims long awaited Mahdi their awaited messiah in the Quran is said to reign for 7 years and who will fight a final battle, the Bible in Revelations prophecies the beast Antichrist will reign 7 years, this isn`t mere coincidence who Christ defeats. When Jesus Christ returns every country He destroys is a Muslim country which is prophesised throughout the old and new Testament.

Walid Shoebat, ex Muslim terrorist now Christian man of God.


1. Truth About Islam - Shahram Hadian ex Muslim now Christian man of God.


2. Islam in America - Shahram Hadian


3. Chrislam - Shahram Hadian and the lie of messing the two.


Origins and pagan worship of Islam.


Why We Are Afraid, A 1400 Year Secret, by Dr Bill Warner


Watch and learn or don`t, others may find these vids informative on the subject.

originally posted by: saadad
a reply to: saint4God

I m not sure if it is the problem believing in GOD. Every person who does not believe in God (or at least thinks he doesn't believe it) should wake up early in the morning at 4 AM. Drive up to some hill seat down, relax and seat down. Wait for sunrise. At the sunrise, think about creation, think about the purpose of everything. Think about why this world exists, think about the universe, think about Sun you are looking at. If this doesn't make you start believing, there is some higher force, some higher being, some higher energy, some higher purpose of everything, GOD how we earthlings call it, I m afraid you are then a dumb scientist.

But I must also say there is, even more, dumber scientist who believe in religion, who blindly follow whatever they are told. Recently they are told that Muslim's are bad, but both religious believe in same GOD. That is so dumb. The problem with science is religion, not God.

And that is your best argument? Look at the world? Therefor god is real? And i'm stupid for wanting more than that to convince me?

originally posted by: saadad
a reply to: saint4God

Every person who does not believe in God (or at least thinks he doesn't believe it) should wake up early in the morning at 4 AM. Drive up to some hill seat down, relax and seat down. Wait for sunrise. At the sunrise, think about creation, think about the purpose of everything. Think about why this world exists, think about the universe, think about Sun you are looking at. If this doesn't make you start believing, there is some higher force, some higher being, some higher energy, some higher purpose of everything, GOD how we earthlings call it, I m afraid you are then a dumb scientist.

So instead of marveling at the fact that the universe happened by chance we should believe that some sky wizard created everything? Sure, let's just forego every bit of scientific evidence to suggest that everything in this universe is the result of a chance quantum fluctuation initializing the big bang from a singularity and just start believing in something we have absolutely no evidence for. Makes complete sense.

But I must also say there is, even more, dumber scientist who believe in religion, who blindly follow whatever they are told.

Examples?

Recently they are told that Muslim's are bad, but both religious believe in same GOD.

What are you talking about? Do you have some sources?

That is so dumb. The problem with science is religion, not God.

Religion does not have anything to do with science, nor does god.