The Blood of Christ, the Blood of the Lamb.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

To abide in Christ, you must first believe in Christ.

how does one abide in Christ?

By believing his words are true... and his words are not "Faith alone"

So yes, so-called "good" non-believer will die the second death if he remains a non-believer. Its not about good works, its about Christ-works. There is a difference between what Christ did and what man tries to pass off as "good".

What HE did was show people how to live according to God, which was loving your Neighbour, Loving God, and letting your "works" shine... this is the issue with Paulian theology

As James Put it.. Faith without works is dead

Its not one without the other... Both are required... and is shown and taught through out the gospels

a reply to: Akragon

Faith alone for the spirit.

Abiding works in Christ for the soul.

Together, they compliment the glorified resurrected body.

Man is spirit, soul, and body, therefore salvation must serve all three aspects.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Except we are not man when we pass...

Why build up treasures of the spirit when we get a physical body afterwords

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Woodcarver

Makes perfect sense to me. Science is human observation. Spiritual phenomena must be revealed by a power hihger than the human mind.

Are you not observing god when he speaks to you and reveals these things? How come what you claim doesn't make sense to everyone? Even other christians on this site? Is it possible that these things only make sense to you because these ideas are coming from your own imagination? From my point of view, it seems like you are trying to make this up as it goes, and when something written in the bible doesn't make sense, you make up a scenario to explain it that also doesn't make any sense.

You invent a spiritual world that can't be tested or observed by anyone but you, where you can claim that anything is possible. Just seems a bit convenient for someone who claims a lot of things that go against current scientific understanding. Why don't you try to use science to prove that this world exists instead of just insisting that you are right and everyone else is wrong?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Text I'll have to disagree with you there. Jesus' spiritual death paid for all sins, so ALL sins are forgiven, hence: "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" Our spirits are no longer condemned by our sins (since all are forgiven), but our souls are judged for the Works we do apart from Christ. A non-believer dies the second death (Lake of Fire). A carnal believer suffers injury of the second death (the Outer Darkness). John 15:5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned Rev 20:13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Even a good deed, if done apart from Christ, will be burned, but to judge anyone (believer or non-believer alike) for sin would be double jeopardy.

Jesus had no spiritual death in my understanding. Jesus had only a physical or terrestrial death. All sins of people were not judged as Jesus was alive.

I deeply respect you and love you as a brother but you may be mistaken.

The spirit is only that portion of man that is to be judged after death. The soul returns to its source and remains terrestrial till its elements are clean dissolved at the last day of creation. The spirit of man is the mind or the consciousness of man. A living terrestrial man has a brain which is the receptor of the detached mind or spirit. When a terrestrial human dies the soul will perish forever and the spirit is judged. The soul is always subservient to the mind and it is the mind which directs the soul or body.

The Judaic rabbinical doctrine tells us that as a person dies the soul returns to the terrestrial elements and the conscious spirit is contained in a chamber in Sheol. The soul will resurrect from its source and unite with the spirit and then stand judgment in their understanding of a last day.

But Jesus' doctrine tells us that the soul will perish forever and the spirit is judged immediately after death. The soul will be forever returned to its original source. As the righteous human is judged it is then immediately given a new celestial body and allowed into the kingdom of the Christ. The unrighteous remains in Sheol (hell) and is destroyed in the last day.

If Jesus had a spiritual death then He would have perished spiritually in a second death. There is nothing in the doctrine of James that says any spirit can resurrect from the second death.

Rev 20:12-15
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Verse 12 Refers to those who are alive and gathered in the second and last gathering as the world ends. This is the only resurrection that the Hebrews were taught at that time.

Verse 13 Is that of the Giants who brought forth the Nephillim who in turn brought forth the Elioud. These were the three antediluvian races who were destroyed in the flood of Noah and were not of the Adamic seed. They are the wondering Satans who perished in the sea and the ones that the sea gives up for punishment. They have already been judged.

Verse 14 Are those spirits who have died the second death as well as those who have not been redeemed by the Christ in His resurrection.

Verse 15 Are those who were alive at the last day and stand as unjudged spirits before the white throne judgment.

James taught that of which Moses taught. There are only two portions of man. One is his/her image and the other his/her spirit. The image is that of the terrestrial substance and the spirit is that of the celestial substance.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

And the image of God is that of The Word and the likeness of God is the portion of God's life.

I realize that I step on toes when I spout this but being a Christian Jew this is what I have been taught. I do not mean to be arrogant or sound confrontational but only to share what I believe. I do not believe in a triune terrestrial creation and the reason I do not believe in a trinity is that there is only one Holy Spirit and that is EL. As it is in heaven so it is on this earth.

So in lite of what I have said, Jesus is the incarnate Word of God and His spirit did not change substance. He had the authority and power of life in the terrestrial substance as He said ---

John10:18
(18) No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

But the power came not from the terrestrial but from the celestial for the terrestrial must perish but the celestial has life.

The Apostle John taught us that the Word of God created all the visible and invisible of both celestial and terrestrial and that He was the incarnate Jesus. How could the Creator die?

a reply to: Seede
What about the martyed souls under the alter in Revelation (5th seal)?

When Jesus was paying for our sins, God turned His back to Him. That tells me it was a spiritual death. What use would it be to overcome physical death if spiritual death was never conquered?

Rabbinical or not, I dont adhere to theological commentators. I might draw elements from them, but I don't follow them religiously. If the Rabbis had taught the truth in the first place, Israel would not still be in diaspora.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Akragon

Faith alone for the spirit.

Abiding works in Christ for the soul.

Together, they compliment the glorified resurrected body.

Man is spirit, soul, and body, therefore salvation must serve all three aspects.

We know what happens to the body after death, and that we will be spirits in heaven.

What would you define the soul as?

What is the difference between soul and spirit? Is the soul ours and the spirit from Supreme Creator?

I know in Alexandrian circles the soul was from the demiurge and the spirit from Sophia leading back to the Unbegotten Infinite One, and matter was made by Sophia and organized by Ialdabaoth.

So in that situation the goal is to liberate the spirit from the desires of the flesh.

But what of the soul?

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Except we are not man when we pass...

Why build up treasures of the spirit when we get a physical body afterwords

How do you come to that conclusion? I am a human soul and spirit now, so why would that change in eternity.

Jesus was still Jesus after resurrection He just had an upgraded body.

a reply to: LenatasataneL

My understanding is that the soul is what makes the individual. You are your soul. Human souls are created after the shadow of God (formatted after God), and are imputed at the point of birth.

The spirit is what connects us with God.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

So the mind?

I wonder if we get to keep that without a brain. Spirits are what we will be, like angels, and far different from our present level of consciousness.

Knew knowledge that is so powerful that the old knowledge is not needed is my understanding of heaven so I think only the spirit enters heaven and we are literally born again as new spirits in heaven.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

TextWhat about the martyed souls under the alter in Revelation (5th seal)? When Jesus was paying for our sins, God turned His back to Him. That tells me it was a spiritual death. What use would it be to overcome physical death if spiritual death was never conquered? Rabbinical or not, I dont adhere to theological commentators. I might draw elements from them, but I don't follow them religiously. If the Rabbis had taught the truth in the first place, Israel would not still be in diaspora.

I don't see the connection of the fifth seal and spiritual death. The fifth seal is the confirmation of the saints who have died the terrestrial death of the soul. These who are under the alter (in New Jerusalem) have received their judgment and have their new celestial bodies which are the covering of white robes. This terrestrial time is before Jacob's Trouble also known as The Great Tribulation. I don't see what you see in any connection with a spiritual death. This only confirms the tradition that Jesus' doctrine is that immediately after death one is judged and is found either in Sheol or in the New Jerusalem. Here they are clearly in the New Jerusalem and before the great tribulation which is in our future.

The Christian rabbis do expound the truth but you are correct in that prior to the knowledge of Jesus the rabbinic and the prophetic teachings were not complete. Even today we do not have all of the doctrine of Jesus. As John was the last of the Apostles to die, even those other Apostles did not know the Revelation to John. And even today the entire doctrine is not known. There are eras or seals to be opened and new revelations to be exposed.

I believe that most all Jews in that era were fully aware of and or had seen death by crucifixion. It was a public display and used as a deterrent to crime. No one overcomes physical death. It shall be for each and everyone to experience. God did not turn His back on Jesus. Did not Jesus say ---

Matthew_26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Most people do not understand that Jesus prayed twice that night and then accepted the will of His Father, Not to have to die but having to die in this way of crucifixion. A most horrible and inhuman way to die, At least that is the understanding I have. Jesus knew that He must die the terrestrial death because it was prophesied so and it was His own law of physics. He knew this very well. He knew that all flesh must perish. But to drink of this cup was not preferred by any man. I don't regard this as God forsaking Him at all but I do understand why in the throws of death that He experienced the very same torture that you and i would experience. He was all human and His suffering was all human.

a reply to: LenatasataneL

The brain is only the an operating system for the soul.

As sinners, our spirits are born dead, so it does need to be born again, but it must happen before we enter eternity. That's where Christ comes in.

a reply to: Seede

My point was that the soul does not go back to earth after physical death. For believers, it goes to heaven until the resurrection.

The white robes are dressing for the soul it does not signify resurrection.

Judgement of works does not occur upon death, but upon resurrection.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Except we are not man when we pass...

Why build up treasures of the spirit when we get a physical body afterwords

How do you come to that conclusion? I am a human soul and spirit now, so why would that change in eternity.

Jesus was still Jesus after resurrection He just had an upgraded body.

For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

No physical body...

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: LenatasataneL

The brain is only the an operating system for the soul.

As sinners, our spirits are born dead,

Speak for yourself. My spirit has always been alive. If you have a dead spirit, well, that sucks. I do not, have never had a dead spirit.




No such thing as a dead spirit.

a reply to: Akragon

But Jesus had a physical body, so He must have meant something else. He said "as angels", not "will be angels".

And Jesus was talking about marital relationships.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

As angels means spiritual and made of light.

a reply to: LenatasataneL

You asked the question and I answered to the best of my knowledge. Personally I do notice a change in myself from before salvation to post salvation, so I know with certainty that my spirit was dead until I was born again.

a reply to: LenatasataneL

The resurrected Christ had a body that could switch from physical to light, so being 'as an angel' does not mean without a physical body. It means no marriage.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: LenatasataneL

The resurrected Christ had a body that could switch from physical to light, so being 'as an angel' does not mean without a physical body. It means no marriage.

No it doesn't. That is an oversimplification of what is meant.

Being made of light is what it really means. No marriage is one aspect of being like angels. There are more than one.