Baptism is Salvation

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: chr0naut

If Jesus death and resurrection were not factors in salvation, why did Jesus have to go through them?

He didn't have to, but He knew what was going to happen...

He explains that "IF this was his kingdom, his people would fight for him"... but this is not his world...

And in that time said religion considered the things he said to be blasphemy

Except they couldn't prove his guilt so "they" had him executed for "sedition" for those same words...

Why then need Jesus be born at all?

The Law was clearly delineated. The temple was doing its sacrifices. John was baptizing. Why then send someone to be pointlessly tortured to death?

Your difficulty, what's making you ask these questions, is a product of "historical Christianity" meaning that you think what is told in the Bible is a 100% factual account.

The truth is that yes, probably a man who taught what Jesus taught probably walked the earth and was put to death for it by the Jews and Romans.

But the rest is mythology. The Gospels don't always agree with each other and were ludicrously limited to 4 because of"the 4 corners of the world." Which is round.

The Old Testament doesn't prophecy a virgin birth in the Hebrew versions and is a mistranslation in the Greek. Furthermore that specific prophecy was never a Messianic prophecy to begin with.

That shows clearly that whoever made that assumption was just searching for Messianic prophecies to fulfill in his Gospel and mistakenly used a mistranslation of a non-Messianic prophecy making Jesus forever born of a virgin, falsley said.

And we are all God's son's and daughter's. He didn't resurrect physically but spiritually, mythologically at that as a message that we should be born again and resurrected here in this life.

Not wait for Jesus to come back and fix everything for you. Or use his death as a profitable human sacrifice.

The ancients knew the value of mythology to preserve ancient and sometimes unspeakable truths. If Jesus had gone down as just another executed cult leader his teachings would have been lost.

This myth preserved the teachings and just like it says, most will listen and not hear the true message but a few will find that narrow path and the Kingdom of God.

Being the majority in Christianity, a fundamental, is naturally the WIDE path that everyone finds. The false"kingdom" of lazy grace.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: chr0naut

If Jesus death and resurrection were not factors in salvation, why did Jesus have to go through them?

He didn't have to, but He knew what was going to happen...

He explains that "IF this was his kingdom, his people would fight for him"... but this is not his world...

And in that time said religion considered the things he said to be blasphemy

Except they couldn't prove his guilt so "they" had him executed for "sedition" for those same words...

Why then need Jesus be born at all?

The Law was clearly delineated. The temple was doing its sacrifices. John was baptizing. Why then send someone to be pointlessly tortured to death?

To reveal the true God of course.

Sacrifices were never needed... They did nothing but appease a false blood thirsty god

Baptism is just a symbolic gesture. And those that actually preached "the law" were corrupt

And some things within said law needed to be straightened out anyways

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: chr0naut

If Jesus death and resurrection were not factors in salvation, why did Jesus have to go through them?

He didn't have to, but He knew what was going to happen...

He explains that "IF this was his kingdom, his people would fight for him"... but this is not his world...

And in that time said religion considered the things he said to be blasphemy

Except they couldn't prove his guilt so "they" had him executed for "sedition" for those same words...

Why then need Jesus be born at all?

The Law was clearly delineated. The temple was doing its sacrifices. John was baptizing. Why then send someone to be pointlessly tortured to death?

To reveal the true God of course.

Sacrifices were never needed... They did nothing but appease a false blood thirsty god

Baptism is just a symbolic gesture. And those that actually preached "the law" were corrupt

And some things within said law needed to be straightened out anyways

100% agree that the purpose was to reveal the true God, but Baptism is more than symbolic it is the equivalent of enlightenment IF you Believe and are baptized you receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is Wisdom.

Though the ritual part is symbolic and a gesture, the results are real.


Too mystical for some but I am a mystic and believe in the reality of Gnosis.

Great to see my brethren(and a few strangers) taking up the topic of baptism. However, less great is it to see you all bicker and belittle yourselves. Bittersweet is the atmosphere of the members of this site which has so many promising souls of mankind. Yet, you fall in to the pit of moth-eating your own garments. Spilling dirt into your own cup as you take all your effort into trying to make it shine on the outside.

Shame.

Peace be upon my brethren and may the one true Father soften your hearts. Even more so may my Father bless those who have no faith, they need it.

Truly, it is faith/works and baptism.

originally posted by: Sump3
Great to see my brethren(and a few strangers) taking up the topic of baptism. However, less great is it to see you all bicker and belittle yourselves. Bittersweet is the atmosphere of the members of this site which has so many promising souls of mankind. Yet, you fall in to the pit of moth-eating your own garments. Spilling dirt into your own cup as you take all your effort into trying to make it shine on the outside.

Shame.

Peace be upon my brethren and may the one true Father soften your hearts. Even more so may my Father bless those who have no faith, they need it.

Truly, it is faith/works and baptism.

While I agree with your last sentence, check yourself before you become a judge. Actually you already did.

Booo to you for criticizing the open discussion of spiritual matters.

Although if people were being idiots and I didn't notice my bad.

But chill with the holier than thou routine.

a reply to: Szarah

I am no better than none. Though I might be worse than some.

I praised the discussion but not the negativity held within it.

I judge in a way that when I see ill works, I reprimand. It is up to my Father in heaven who is the true judge who makes the hammer fall.

So should all who believe in the Son and He who sent Him.

originally posted by: Sump3
a reply to: Szarah

I am no better than none. Though I might be worse than some.

I praised the discussion but not the negativity held within it.

I judge in a way that when I see ill works, I reprimand. It is up to my Father in heaven who is the true judge who makes the hammer fall.

So should all who believe in the Son and He who sent Him.

If you are no better, you have no business reprimanding anyone.

" Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. "

Or did you miss that teaching?

a reply to: Szarah

The only one who is good is my Father in heaven. No one is better than anyone else. Though everyone can become worse than others.

I cast no stone. I said what I said out of care, love, faith, hope. So should you.

a reply to: Szarah

100% agree that the purpose was to reveal the true God, but Baptism is more than symbolic it is the equivalent of enlightenment IF you Believe and are baptized you receive the Holy Spirit.

Baptism IS enlightenment. It is the moment that one realizes the union between one's self and the "Holy Spirit". It's usually accompanied by a shower of tears.

Ceremonial immersion is a symbolic gesture, not a rite.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Szarah

100% agree that the purpose was to reveal the true God, but Baptism is more than symbolic it is the equivalent of enlightenment IF you Believe and are baptized you receive the Holy Spirit.

Baptism IS enlightenment. It is the moment that one realizes the union between one's self and the "Holy Spirit". It's usually accompanied by a shower of tears.

Ceremonial immersion is a symbolic gesture, not a rite.

Ceremonial, symbolic, gesture, rite all demean the significance of baptism and the method of.

I'll correct even myself. None of it is symbolic the whole thing is real and literal.


Obviously if your moment of awareness comes and you can't find water you can just ask the Holy Spirit and get the same results but if you have access to water I would say it is proper to use it.

a reply to: Sump3

No, you cast a few stones. Claim it is out of love but I am not buying it.

You were casting your own superiority more than anything.

a reply to: Szarah

If that is what you see. So be it.

Peace be with you

a reply to: Szarah

I would like to ask all Christians a serious question, how important is baptism to you?

Do you mean John's baptism of water for the remission of sin or do you mean Jesus' baptism for the infilling of the Holy Spirit?

Who is to do the baptism with all the denominations that exist today? If you chose the wrong person and or the wrong baptism are you then truly baptized? Lots of questions here for anyone to get it right. John and Jesus didn't have all this mess we have today so you couldn't get it wrong back then.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Szarah

I would like to ask all Christians a serious question, how important is baptism to you?

Do you mean John's baptism of water for the remission of sin or do you mean Jesus' baptism for the infilling of the Holy Spirit?

Who is to do the baptism with all the denominations that exist today? If you chose the wrong person and or the wrong baptism are you then truly baptized? Lots of questions here for anyone to get it right. John and Jesus didn't have all this mess we have today so you couldn't get it wrong back then.

Of course, I mean the Baptism of Jesus kind and not John's. I spoke about the Spirit baptism and John didn't do that so...

As far as who baptizes, I don't believe a person other than the person being baptized should participate. A few friends present doesn't sound bad but they, having no power, shouldn't participate in a highly spiritual action between man and God.

No man has the power to baptize another.

Only the Spirit has that power. A man baptizing another man when neither knows the other's intent and true self is a church event and spectacle. Even the sincere don't know if the other is.

And for that reason I believe that baptism should be private and between the person and the Spirit. It shows the Spirit Faith that you don't need a person to advance you spiritually and that you trust the Spirit enough that a human is unnecessary.