Baptism is Salvation

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: windword

You communicated how you believed that I was wrong. That is fine, it is a valid opinion, but how was I being stupid and/or arrogant?

Can you address the issues I've already presented instead of vainly asking me to indulge you in further conversion about you?

a reply to: Szarah

John 3:16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

John 3:35“The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Read all of John 3. The emphasis is on faith in Christ, not being baptized by water. Even John the Baptist stated that eternal life was by faith in the Son. Why didn't he mention water baptism? Because first and foremost, you must believe on the Son.

I myself have been baptized. I think it is the first step in the washing of the soul in obedience to God's Word, by my Eternal Life is by faith alone.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: Szarah

Amen.....

Baptism is a part of spiritual rebirth (being reborn) but it will not save you from your sins or hell.

When a grown person not a baby or small child commits to accepting the Father, his Son and the Holy Spirit as his/her God and no other gods .... this person who has been taught and accept the Gospel is letting everyone in heaven, earth and hell KNOW that he is a child of God and has accepted this NEW covenant..... through baptism. This is the most important part of the baptism and when the ENTIRE body is submerged in water (a sign of rebirth) THAT person is eligible to receive the Holy Spirit.

If the person failed to ask God for forgiveness of sins and repents prior to water baptism and fails to ORALLY STATE OUT LOUD what is stated above then water baptism will be useless, the Holy Spirit will likely fail to show up AND anyone with false heart about the matter should be careful....

I have seen many who ALLEGE they were baptised yet the Holy Spirit is not with them.

S&F brother/ sister

How many lost souls have you baptized?

I don't baptize people, as I believe that only the Spirit and the person being baptized in water need be present.

I don't agree with the"eligible to receive the Holy Spirit" statement or that you need to testify anything out loud about any new covenant I just follow the instructions of Christ. You can just ask the for forgiveness, and ask for the Spirit, in your head or out loud. I.M.O.

And Christ says it is the difference between condemnation and salvation. That at baptism you receive the Spirit if you believe.

Water is for the forgiveness of sins but the Spirit is Wisdom.

But I see nothing harmful about your view, I am not saying you are wrong, just that I have a slightly different view.

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: windword

You communicated how you believed that I was wrong. That is fine, it is a valid opinion, but how was I being stupid and/or arrogant?

Can you address the issues I've already presented instead of vainly asking me to indulge you in further conversion about you?

NO!

Because 99.99% of the time you address me, you try to entangle me in some convoluted argument to test my patients.

How was I being stupid or arrogant in my first comment?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

The emphasis on belief/faith is that it will lead to baptism which leads to the Holy Spirit. Ask and you shall receive.

Faith without action is not faith at all. Just a thought. As James puts it" Faith without works is dead.". After a long speech on the uselessness of faith by itself or in everyday life and its inability to save anyone without action.

You are leaning towards Pauline theology and I am not into it.

a reply to: windword
Allegorical Verses not interpreted cannot be used to support a literal meaning if they are allegorical.

It is your claim that ALL the Bible is Allegorical.

So if that be true Baptism doesn't mean immersion, Jesus isn't a man but something else, salvation is not salvation.

So in this case unless you can give the allegorical meaning to the verses you quoted then it is Irrelevant.

originally posted by: Szarah
John the Baptizer said in Luke 3:16:

16 ..."I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I is coming; I am not worthy to tie untie the thing of his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 17 His winnowing fork is in hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his granary; but the chaff he will burn with the unquenchable fire."


Fire is a symbol of purity and wisdom. The unquenchable fire is the result of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the chaff is the old you. You are now born of the water , Spirit and fire. Born again, burning with passion for knowledge of God. Pure and new. This is a highly spiritual process and no symbolic ritual. Faith leads to this, and faith moves mountains. If it is Wisdom you seek and enlightenment, knowledge of God, self and mastery over material and physical desire, you will receive it if you have Faith.

Mark 16:16

"The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe is condemned."

16-18 are the last things Christ says before the Ascension and that means it is of great importance. And what he said was those who are baptized will be saved and the unbeliever condemned. Self explanatory.


Luke 3:21-22

21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, " You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased."

Now I am certain that the reason Christ wants us to be baptized is because our baptism is the same as his baptism and we also receive the Holy Spirit. We don't get miraculous powers but Wisdom we do get.

I believe in the power of baptism and that it is Salvation as Christ states. I believe that it is an initiation into the Way of the Nazarene, a spiritual order that has no earthly organization just people who follow the teachings of the blessed Christ who was killed, but not before divulging the path to Salvation. Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

" And surely I am with you always to the very end of the age." Matthew 28:20

I would like to ask all Christians a serious question, how important is baptism to you?

I took, from the quoted verses, that baptism has a role in salvation, but that baptism alone does not confer salvation.

If such were the case, Jesus' death and resurrection would be unnecessary and God could well have stopped with the work of John the Baptist.

As it was, God (in the person of Jesus) suffered torture and death to enable our salvation and was resurrected for our assurance.

True repentance is also a factor in our salvation as is a faith that Jesus death and resurrection was sufficient.

a reply to: chr0naut

Jesus death and resurrection were never supposed to be an element in Salvation.

Believe and be baptized and you are saved, if not condemned.

According to Jesus, it's cut and dry.


Faith/belief leads to repentance, baptism of water gives the Spirit and that is Salvation.

You are born again and later resurrected as you travel the narrow road.

He was not a human, or in your case Godman sacrifice for sin. This was only taught by a man who didn't know Jesus and hated the James faction of the church and taught an entirely separate and hostile to Torah version of the Messiah. Because he wanted to be on his own and not under James.

Before he ascends, right before, he reiterated that baptism is salvation. His last words before he leaves for heaven have to be considered as his most important message because that is what he chose to depart on to leave the proper impression of the saving effects of baptism.

a reply to: chr0naut

In fact Jesus was not God and never made that claim.

He refers to God as his God.

So that means God could also have a God if Jesus is a God and has a God then God could have a God too.

Jesus was a human with a message that wasn't supposed to be preached to the common man. The keys to heaven were given us and his teachings are the most important thing in the Bible.

His death is just tragic but his resurrection is symbolic of us rediscovering our own divinity that has been concealed by allegory and myth.

originally posted by: Szarah
a reply to: chr0naut

Jesus death and resurrection were never supposed to be an element in Salvation.

Believe and be baptized and you are saved, if not condemned.

According to Jesus, it's cut and dry.

Faith/belief leads to repentance, baptism of water gives the Spirit and that is Salvation.

You are born again and later resurrected as you travel the narrow road.

He was not a human, or in your case Godman sacrifice for sin. This was only taught by a man who didn't know Jesus and hated the James faction of the church and taught an entirely separate and hostile to Torah version of the Messiah. Because he wanted to be on his own and not under James.

If Jesus death and resurrection were not factors in salvation, why did Jesus have to go through them?

Well before He died, Jesus explained that He would die. From Jesus stand point, His death and resurrection was inevitable.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Szarah
a reply to: chr0naut

Jesus death and resurrection were never supposed to be an element in Salvation.

Believe and be baptized and you are saved, if not condemned.

According to Jesus, it's cut and dry.

Faith/belief leads to repentance, baptism of water gives the Spirit and that is Salvation.

You are born again and later resurrected as you travel the narrow road.

He was not a human, or in your case Godman sacrifice for sin. This was only taught by a man who didn't know Jesus and hated the James faction of the church and taught an entirely separate and hostile to Torah version of the Messiah. Because he wanted to be on his own and not under James.

If Jesus death and resurrection were not factors in salvation, why did Jesus have to go through them?

Well before He died, Jesus explained that He would die. From Jesus stand point, His death and resurrection was inevitable.

It may have been planned, but not for the purpose of atonement. If that were the case then he wouldn't have taught baptism.

He was the victim of a plot and gave his life out of love knowing the value of a martyr in starting a movement.

This would spread his message of salvation and his teachings more aggressively and he didn't have to do it. He chose to.

And if he just resurrects and ascends to the right hand of God he didn't actually suffer in any permanently damaging way. The crucifixion is not about salvation.

It is about resurrection.

The FACT remains that salvation through mere belief in the crucifixion as a sacrificial atonement is not a thing taught by Christ.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

NO! Because 99.99% of the time you address me, you try to entangle me in some convoluted argument to test my patients.

LOL! Well, there's an example of your arrogance, right there. Here's an example of "stupid".

Water baptism, like the Eucharist, is nothing more than a public display of faith in Christ.

"Really? You think that Jesus, who said this: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:... only ordered this because he wanted public displays of faith?

Really? The same Jesus who said this; "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward........

That Jesus wants converts to be baptized because he wanted a public show of faith? "

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Who was Jesus the Nazarene trying to impress with his public display of faith when he submitted himself for baptism to John the Baptist?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

So if that be true Baptism doesn't mean immersion

Everyone needs to take a bath every now and then, but no, taking a dip in a lake or a sea isn't what baptism is, or what baptism is all about.

Hint: Baptism is NOT a Christian invention.

Baptism or resurrection, being reborn none are original to Christianity but they convey the same message always concealed by mythology.

The key elements in baptism are water, fire and Spirit the fourth element is the new man.

It is often misused as a way to make people feel initiated into a certain church and not in Christ.

The Holy Spirit is the star of baptism. That is being born again. Christ says if you believe and be baptized, so if you believe that you will receive the Holy Spirit, you will receive the Holy Spirit and be born anew, purified and burning with passion for the knowledge of God.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Szarah

You said baptism gives a person wisdom, how?
Did you get baptised, did you get special wisdom after, like what exactly, that's interesting

I understand baptism is nothing but an action of faith, nothing more

Baptism is an act of faith, you receive forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit.

Do you think the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth does NOT give you Wisdom? That sounds like you don't have much Faith in the Holy Spirit.

Yes, I believe that at baptism I was blessed with the Wisdom to understand what I needed to and have not had a day where I haven't increased in Wisdom.

I just take Jesus teachings too seriously I guess.

But it did work and I praise The Ineffable One.


But you called it" Nothing more than an act of faith."

Did you not read Jesus saying that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, and those who don't, condemned?

Sounds like more than an act of faith.

I mean, unless you don't want to enter the Kingdom of God, another thing baptism is a requirement for.

Salvation, the Kingdom of God. More than just an act of faith chief.

Sounds like s fundamental misunderstanding of the very words of Christ is what you have.

The Holy Spirit is also received at Baptism. And yes, Wisdom is a blessing of the Spirit and gives you the eyes and ears to understand the greater mysteries Christ said that non disciples wouldn't understand.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Szarah

Salvation of the Spirit is faith in Christ's payment for our sins.

Water baptism, like the Eucharist, is nothing more than a public display of faith in Christ. It also communicates the progressive Salvation of the Soul. Water represents the water of the Word of God washing away unrighteousness.

However, to carry out water baptism without putting it in its proper place, is vanity.

So, no. Water baptism is not salvation. It simply depicts salvation in totality:

Salvation of Spirit--Death to sin.

Salvation of Soul--Washed by the Word.

Salvation of the Body--Resurrection as Christ was resurrected.

A symbol cannot save you.

No, I am not JW.

"Water baptism is NOTHING MORE than a public display of faith." You say.

Well, Jesus stated it was the difference between Salvation and condemnation so you're a little off when you say that it's just a public display.

I baptized myself with no people around because I don't need to show off and don't need a human to baptize me when I have Christ and the Holy Spirit available 24/7.

And the Eucharist is not nearly as important as salvation/baptism. It is done in remembrance and not a requirement to enter the Kingdom of God.

"Communicates the progressive Salvation of the Soul.'' you said.

Salvation is receiving the Spirit through baptism. It is complete and the next step is putting it in action learning and teaching and giving. There is no such thing as progressive Salvation of the Soul. And it communicates the Holy Spirit which is the Key to the Kingdom of God, on earth as it is in heaven.

Faith only is lazy, not a Christian teaching and is dead as in not faith at all, useless.

True Faith or Belief leads to the Holy Spirit and that is Salvation.

a reply to: chr0naut

If Jesus death and resurrection were not factors in salvation, why did Jesus have to go through them?

He didn't have to, but He knew what was going to happen...

He explains that "IF this was his kingdom, his people would fight for him"... but this is not his world...

And in that time said religion considered the things he said to be blasphemy

Except they couldn't prove his guilt so "they" had him executed for "sedition" for those same words...

originally posted by: Szarah

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Szarah
a reply to: chr0naut

Jesus death and resurrection were never supposed to be an element in Salvation.

Believe and be baptized and you are saved, if not condemned.

According to Jesus, it's cut and dry.

Faith/belief leads to repentance, baptism of water gives the Spirit and that is Salvation.

You are born again and later resurrected as you travel the narrow road.

He was not a human, or in your case Godman sacrifice for sin. This was only taught by a man who didn't know Jesus and hated the James faction of the church and taught an entirely separate and hostile to Torah version of the Messiah. Because he wanted to be on his own and not under James.

If Jesus death and resurrection were not factors in salvation, why did Jesus have to go through them?

Well before He died, Jesus explained that He would die. From Jesus stand point, His death and resurrection was inevitable.

It may have been planned, but not for the purpose of atonement. If that were the case then he wouldn't have taught baptism.

He was the victim of a plot and gave his life out of love knowing the value of a martyr in starting a movement.

This would spread his message of salvation and his teachings more aggressively and he didn't have to do it. He chose to.

And if he just resurrects and ascends to the right hand of God he didn't actually suffer in any permanently damaging way. The crucifixion is not about salvation.

It is about resurrection.

The FACT remains that salvation through mere belief in the crucifixion as a sacrificial atonement is not a thing taught by Christ.

At the last supper, Jesus said His blood was part of a new covenant, would be poured out and was for the forgiveness of sin. That is the atoning power of His crucifixion (which He prophesied about even before entering Jerusalem) being taught by Christ.

Jesus called Himself "the Son of God" several times and also said He was the ONLY one who had descended from God the Father.

Proverbs 30:4 cryptically asks about God "what is His name or His Son's name?" Clearly the old testament teaches that God had a Son.

Jesus also said that no-one could be saved, except through Him.

He said to the Pharisees, "before Abraham was, I Am". In case you think He was just saying He had been around for ages, look at the reaction of the Pharisees; they took up stones to stone Him. They didn't miss the inference that Jesus was using the name for God, "I Am" for Himself.

John 1 clearly says that the word was God and became flesh in the form of Jesus.

If Jesus was just another human, His death says less about God's care and concern for us than if He were God. It says that God doesn't live far off in a distant heaven, dictating how we should live, but instead God Himself experienced everything human, right up to a tortured death, betrayed by everyone except, perhaps, four women.

Isaiah mentions that the Messiah would be "A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief".

The fact that it was God who suffered up on that cross is vital to the concept of redemption. He bought us back through taking the undeserved punishment that should have been ours.

originally posted by: Szarah


Baptism or resurrection, being reborn none are original to Christianity but they convey the same message always concealed by mythology.

The key elements in baptism are water, fire and Spirit the fourth element is the new man.

It is often misused as a way to make people feel initiated into a certain church and not in Christ.

The Holy Spirit is the star of baptism. That is being born again. Christ says if you believe and be baptized, so if you believe that you will receive the Holy Spirit, you will receive the Holy Spirit and be born anew, purified and burning with passion for the knowledge of God.

Christ did not say that if you are not baptized, you will be condemned. He said that if you do not believe, you will be condemned.

Baptism, then, is only an outward expression of your belief.

Baptism is ceremonial washing. Very many faiths have ceremonial washing. John baptized in water but mentioned that Jesus would baptize in the Spirit. Jesus said that to be saved, one must be be baptized by the water and the Spirit. If baptism is an outward expression of belief, then this accords exactly with the belief = salvation concept. God looks on the heart, he sees our intent.

Baptism is therefore, only ceremony, to reflect the condition of the intent of the heart. It only saves if we believe as well.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: chr0naut

If Jesus death and resurrection were not factors in salvation, why did Jesus have to go through them?

He didn't have to, but He knew what was going to happen...

He explains that "IF this was his kingdom, his people would fight for him"... but this is not his world...

And in that time said religion considered the things he said to be blasphemy

Except they couldn't prove his guilt so "they" had him executed for "sedition" for those same words...

Why then need Jesus be born at all?

The Law was clearly delineated. The temple was doing its sacrifices. John was baptizing. Why then send someone to be pointlessly tortured to death?