Prince Died of Accidental Overdose of Fentanyl

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: reldra
Thanks for posting the results.

I tend to agree with Annee. It isn't like Prince slipped on a Fentanyl patch that was lying on the floor and broke his skull open. He was an addict and he was using Fentanyl. He needed to because he was addicted. It is a shame that no one interceded and got him the treatment that he could have easily afforded.

I guess the authorities like to say the it was 'accidental' to make it clear that he did not intend to cause his own death, but it still seems like the wrong way to word it for people like me that are not addicts.

What word should be used? People can die of an overdose if they are an addict, if they use a drug once a year, if they get a prescription and don't read the directions properly or the directions are not printed properly.

One topic I was reading was about VIP syndrome, something describing doctors who treat celebrities differently than their other patients that can lead to negligence- similar to Michael Jackson's doctor.




I have been prescribed Clonazepam for about 15 years and will be for the rest of my life. I am certainly addicted, but will never overdose.

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: reldra
Thanks for posting the results.

I tend to agree with Annee. It isn't like Prince slipped on a Fentanyl patch that was lying on the floor and broke his skull open. He was an addict and he was using Fentanyl. He needed to because he was addicted. It is a shame that no one interceded and got him the treatment that he could have easily afforded.

I guess the authorities like to say the it was 'accidental' to make it clear that he did not intend to cause his own death, but it still seems like the wrong way to word it for people like me that are not addicts.

That seems like a lot of guess work there.

originally posted by: UnBreakable

originally posted by: grey580

Prince must of been in a ton of pain to be taking this stuff.

I don't know how much pain he was actually in, but he no doubt was addicted.

Having been on long term pain management, I can assure you there is a big difference between being addicted and Gavin a physical dependency on a medication.

a reply to: ketsuko

I guess the question comes down to how he was getting the Fentanyl. Did he have a 'bad' doctor that overprescribed? Or was he scoring the amount needed to maintain his addiction illegally?

People on prescription opiates need to be monitored for abuse by health care professionals.

I am not faulting the man for becoming addicted, and I do not suspect that he was doing it recreationally. According to everything out there he was using it for pain management.

a reply to: SeaWorthy

I guess.
Now which part specifically are you referring to?

a reply to: butcherguy

It's a fine line though and a bit premature to call him an addict. If he was getting legit prescriptions and under a doctors supervision then I wouldn't call him an addict. There's a big difference to building up tolerance and having a physical dependence on narcotics and being an addict. If he was paying someone who wasn't a doctor or pharmacist to obtain Fentanyl patches in addition to his legal prescriptions then I would agree he was an addict. There hasn't been any information, as yet, to support him illegally obtaining medication. There is however a paper trail showing that he was being prescribed narcotics. There are specific behaviors associated with addiction so I think it's just a tad early to call Prince an addict just because he had been taking medication to help with his pain for years. It's afine line but the line is there.

I am a chronic pain patient for over 25 yrs. I've taken daily prescribed percocet, as well as stronger drugs, for long periods of time, AND done without, as well.

Just as there is a lobby to remove guns from the hands of the general public, and random gun executed crimes seem to escalate in support of such a lobby, there seems to me to be something similar going on with opiate drugs designed to kill or control pain. Suddenly, there are report of massive heroin dependance as a result, and famous overdoses, to boot.

Frankly, I hate this agenda supporting crap (at least this is what it appears to be.)
I hate people dying from random gun violence, and people dying from overdoses, as well.

But, as a chronic pain patient, there are times when I absolutely hate enduring pain with no respite because of some agenda, high profile demographic heroin addiction, and high profile, unintentional overdose as a reported result.

Having said all that, not much of what I am alluding to appears to be logical. Yet, my observance of the issues at hand, is. Some cognitive dissonance: as in, it can't possibly be related, but it certainly appears to be. And if it is, how is that accomplished, exactly?

Should we trust "news?" or events that are reported leading us to a convenient calculation of "preventative" efforts to stop what is being reported, that we don't even know is true?

I've some experience with Fentanyl patches, as well. Chose, myself, to forgo that, as a necessary component to long term quality of life would seem to be memory of it..... But each person in pain experiences what they do, and those experiences may be a lot different.

There is a control system, I believe, firmly at work in our current paradigm. Perhaps it would like us to experience more pain, for whatever reason. Someone has to speak against further controls and moral objections to painkillers, because believe it or not, there are lots of people in pain who need them.

I am a Prince fan, as well.....
I think his death had far more to do with said control system, then with drug addiction, Fentanyl or pain.....the control system clearly likes our pain, as evidenced by Prince's death in an elevator, which he seems to have had a phobia about, and which he mentions in many lyrics to his tunes....
Sincerely,
tetra50

originally posted by: reldra
These were patches.

I know someone who ate nicotine patches!

That aside, I agree. In the absence of evidence that he did this on purpose it has to be taken as accidental. Very sad, even though I was not a Prince fan.

a reply to: peter vlar

No, you can become addicted to your prescription medications. It has happened to way too many people. All it takes is for them to be around and for you to be tempted to use them a little too easily, a little too often. Before long, you are justifying them for reasons that really don't have much to do with what you started taking them for.

Or, your body can aid and abet by starting to make you feel pain in ways that trigger you to take more pills.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: peter vlar

No, you can become addicted to your prescription medications. It has happened to way too many people. All it takes is for them to be around and for you to be tempted to use them a little too easily, a little too often. Before long, you are justifying them for reasons that really don't have much to do with what you started taking them for.

Or, your body can aid and abet by starting to make you feel pain in ways that trigger you to take more pills.

Hey Ketsuko:
Fundamentally, I agree with you, and this is the "addictive science" that now rules the roost in terms of alcohol and opioid addiction: and what I refer to here, is your nod to your brain, with depressed sympathetic nervous system by opiates, rendering your endorphin receptors in your brain virtually non useful and non functioning, and so pain suppressive being limited, your brain begins to send a signal to synapses lacking proper chemicals to buffer the junction, producing pain, which isn't coming from points in the injured body, but from an injured brain....

However, this is a very complicated issue: In particular, for people who are in pain, chronically, and in need of what will be taken away from them if this particular agenda gains footing.

I'm just recommending a very careful dissemination of the "facts," both as they appear, and those which we might not be aware of. For living in pain without relief is as cruel as making addictive opiates too available to potential addicts.
Surely, we should be aware that many agendas are weighing in on this subject, and that it is vastly more complicated than it first appears, as virtually everything is, these days. I wonder, frankly, that anyone, in current times, sites Occam's Razor as proof or logic, thereof, of absolutely any conclusion, as things are way more complicated, on purpose, than they first appear to be.

Hope you are well.
tetra

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: reldra
Thanks for posting the results.

I tend to agree with Annee. It isn't like Prince slipped on a Fentanyl patch that was lying on the floor and broke his skull open. He was an addict and he was using Fentanyl. He needed to because he was addicted. It is a shame that no one interceded and got him the treatment that he could have easily afforded.

I guess the authorities like to say the it was 'accidental' to make it clear that he did not intend to cause his own death, but it still seems like the wrong way to word it for people like me that are not addicts.

I had a freind who shattered her ankle and did some prettt extensive damage to nerves in the foot. She was on morphine for a few weeks because of the pain and got hooked and struggled for a year to come off with a number of relapses.


Its very very easy to go from needing something to addicted and if its a long term pain problem you can cross that line without knowing.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: peter vlar

No, you can become addicted to your prescription medications. It has happened to way too many people. All it takes is for them to be around and for you to be tempted to use them a little too easily, a little too often. Before long, you are justifying them for reasons that really don't have much to do with what you started taking them for.

Or, your body can aid and abet by starting to make you feel pain in ways that trigger you to take more pills.

Exactly .

When takeing opiates and benzos you can cross the line from needing to being addicted without ever knowing.

a reply to: ketsuko

I'm not saying that you can't be an addict on legally prescribed medications. I'm saying that there is a difference between having a high tolerance coupled with physical dependency and being an addict. If you are taking the medication as prescribed you will after a period of time, still become physically dependent and go through withdrawal if you cease taking the medication. That's not the same thing as being an addict though.

For example, say you are being prescribed 10 mg Percocet 6/day. Someone who following their Drs. instructions is going to take the pills every 4 hours as prescribed. An addict is going to take all 6 at once to get high and all too often, will take more than the daily max at one time and end up running out early. This gives them 2 options, go through withdrawal or find another way to fill the gap until they can get a refill. Sometimes it will be paying a huge markup for someone else's pharmaceuticals and other times it could be potent street drugs. Again, just a very broad and generalized example.

The person who is not addicted but has a physical dependence on pain medication in contrast to the addict doesn't anise the medication just for the sake of getting high. They will however, suffer the sale heinous withdrawal symptoms if they miss a dose.

Again, I don't disagree with what you said at all. I've been to far too many funerals and seen far too many talented people with everything going for them end up in prison because their addictions spiraled out of control. What started off as a legit prescription for 120 pills per month quickly turned into that scrip lasting barely 10 days and then they started buying other people's scrips. When that wasn't an option they stole other peoples scrips including their closest friends and family. When that wasn't enough they turned to Afghanistans largest export product and beg borrow and steal from anyone they had to in order to continue Feeding their addiction.

At the end of the day, there is still a huge difference between an actual addict and someone with legitimate chronic pain issues who are taking their medication as prescribed. Hell, my pain management Dr. Makes all new patients sign a contract in which we agree to random drug testing and pill counts to ensure that you are taking your meds as prescribed, not abusing them or selling them to other people. On top of that, any illicit substance that shows up in your urine is grounds for immediate dismissal from the practice including cannabis and medical marijuana is legal here.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: peter vlar

No, you can become addicted to your prescription medications. It has happened to way too many people. All it takes is for them to be around and for you to be tempted to use them a little too easily, a little too often. Before long, you are justifying them for reasons that really don't have much to do with what you started taking them for.

Or, your body can aid and abet by starting to make you feel pain in ways that trigger you to take more pills.

Exactly .

When takeing opiates and benzos you can cross the line from needing to being addicted without ever knowing.

Benzos are worse than opiates. The physical dependency happens much quicker and the withdrawal is more brutal than Heroin or Morphine.

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: ketsuko

I'm not saying that you can't be an addict on legally prescribed medications. I'm saying that there is a difference between having a high tolerance coupled with physical dependency and being an addict. If you are taking the medication as prescribed you will after a period of time, still become physically dependent and go through withdrawal if you cease taking the medication. That's not the same thing as being an addict though.

For example, say you are being prescribed 10 mg Percocet 6/day. Someone who following their Drs. instructions is going to take the pills every 4 hours as prescribed. An addict is going to take all 6 at once to get high and all too often, will take more than the daily max at one time and end up running out early. This gives them 2 options, go through withdrawal or find another way to fill the gap until they can get a refill. Sometimes it will be paying a huge markup for someone else's pharmaceuticals and other times it could be potent street drugs. Again, just a very broad and generalized example.

The person who is not addicted but has a physical dependence on pain medication in contrast to the addict doesn't anise the medication just for the sake of getting high. They will however, suffer the sale heinous withdrawal symptoms if they miss a dose.

Again, I don't disagree with what you said at all. I've been to far too many funerals and seen far too many talented people with everything going for them end up in prison because their addictions spiraled out of control. What started off as a legit prescription for 120 pills per month quickly turned into that scrip lasting barely 10 days and then they started buying other people's scrips. When that wasn't an option they stole other peoples scrips including their closest friends and family. When that wasn't enough they turned to Afghanistans largest export product and beg borrow and steal from anyone they had to in order to continue Feeding their addiction.

At the end of the day, there is still a huge difference between an actual addict and someone with legitimate chronic pain issues who are taking their medication as prescribed. Hell, my pain management Dr. Makes all new patients sign a contract in which we agree to random drug testing and pill counts to ensure that you are taking your meds as prescribed, not abusing them or selling them to other people. On top of that, any illicit substance that shows up in your urine is grounds for immediate dismissal from the practice including cannabis and medical marijuana is legal here.

good points. however, all pain management drs do that, sir. That's what pain management means, really. And respectfully, your offered proofs for the differences don't make the cut, either. Being in pain and on the management of it, really, means you will develop a tolerance for your meds. Given enough time, let's be honest about this, you will need higher doses of anything to control said pain. So, yeah, lots of people in pain will still overtake their meds, as their need for the med to kill the pain will eventually, physiologically, tolerance-wise outscale what they are prescribed.

This is a fact. How you manage that as a patient is kind of the test of the grit in you. That's why most chronic pain sufferers go on and off meds for long periods at a time: to scale down our tolerance, so we can still be helped without dilaudid, a class 4 drug usually reserved for folks dying of cancer, bc that's how addictive it is. And so are the vast amount of opiate pain killers. Of course, they are addictive, whether you are in pain or seeking to get high. Your response to the physicality of addiction, however, is what differs from the recreationally using, high seeking to the person in chronic pain seeking to relieve pain. That's a fine line, I admit, but nevertheless, a line. How each reacts to the body's dependence is what makes us different, as well as, when you have pain and take opiates, you're less likely to get "high" as those without pain, taking opiates, seeking just that: a high. Because, fundamentally, those is pain have a different inherent brain chemistry and chemical reaction to painkillers, therefore, than those just taking painkillers recreationally seeking a high. That's a fact. And that should be recognized the same way as what Ketsuko sited as pure addiction science these days, for those facts are just as well known and documented.
Respectfully,
tetra50

originally posted by: tetra50

good points. however, all pain management drs do that, sir.

In my experience, thats not the case. I've been on long term chronic pain management for over 15 years straight and on and off of it for the decade prior and the current pain management specialist I was referred to by the surgeon who replaced my hip is the first to have me sign a contract period let alone one where I agree to random drug tests and pill counts.

what pain management means, really.

It means that you accept random piss tests as a staple of your life? Silly me, I thought it was about managing your chronic pain so that you could enjoy some semblance of a normal life while being monitored by a physician who specializes in treating chronic pain.

respectfully, your offered proofs for the differences don't make the cut, either. Being in pain and on the management of it, really, means you will develop a tolerance for your meds. Given enough time, let's be honest about this, you will need higher doses of anything to control said pain. So, yeah, lots of people in pain will still overtake their meds, as their need for the med to kill the pain will eventually, physiologically, tolerance-wise outscale what they are prescribed. This is a fact.

Respectfully, I didn't offer any proofs. I gave my opinion based on my personal experiences with managing chronic pain from a congenital condition that was undiagnosed and exasperated by my military service. But if you believe that I am incorrect in my presentation of the differences between a full blown addict and someone who has developed tolerances for opiates and due to long term use has a physical dependence on the medications, then the only other answer is that you believe every single patient under the care of a physician for chronic pain is in fact an addict. That simply is not the case.

How you manage that as a patient is kind of the test of the grit in you. That's why most chronic pain sufferers go on and off meds for long periods at a time: to scale down our tolerance, so we can still be helped without dilaudid, a class 4 drug usually reserved for folks dying of cancer, bc that's how addictive it is. And so are the vast amount of opiate pain killers. Of course, they are addictive, whether you are in pain or seeking to get high.

I never said opiates were not addictive. I said there is a big difference between an addict and someone who has developed tolerance to and physical dependence on, opiate based medications.

response to the physicality of addiction, however, is what differs from the recreationally using, high seeking to the person in chronic pain seeking to relieve pain. That's a fine line, I admit, but nevertheless, a line.

You're conflating tolerance/physical dependence with actual addiction. You're certainly entitled to disagree if you so choose but in one breath you're saying I'm wrong and in the next paraphrasing what I earlier stated.

How each reacts to the body's dependence is what makes us different, as well as, when you have pain and take opiates, you're less likely to get "high" as those without pain, taking opiates, seeking just that: a high. Because, fundamentally, those is pain have a different inherent brain chemistry and chemical reaction to painkillers, therefore, than those just taking painkillers recreationally seeking a high. That's a fact. And that should be recognized the same way as what Ketsuko sited as pure addiction science these days, for those facts are just as well known and documented.
Respectfully,
tetra50

So you start off with telling me I'm wrong and then say the same thing as I did in a different way? Which is it? I'm wrong which would mean that every patient on long term pain management is an addict or you agree with me and there are differences between a patient who can maintain some semblance of self control and only have to deal with the physical effects of being on opiates long term?

My mom had those during her cancer horror show; her esophagus was annihilated from them over dosing her with microwaves, so she couldn't swallow pills, or even drink water it got so bad).

They were 72 hour time released, at a few different microgram specs (I think it was 50mcg, 75mcg, 100mcg). So chopping them into 72 pieces would make each piece a one hour dose, or something along those lines.

But before the patches became the only option they would switch her back and forth between opiates every few weeks (Oxy, then liquid morphine, then etc). At one point her throat wasn't agonizing for a couple-few weeks and sshe went from drinking liquid morphine the one day, then no opiates at all for that stretch. I was surprised no weening required (after months of this), but she reported that when you actually need the stuff, combined with the staggered opiod switching, when the pains stops she didnt need the dope.

I broke a bunch of bones in my right arm and shoulder when I was in the Navy. The corpsmen were friends of mine. There was a chart of how much Demerol I could have for pain and when I could have it. They never violated the chart, but, when I was hurting, I'd get the max dose at the minimum time. It took about three weeks for the Doc to wean me off of it. That's three weeks that I never want to repeat.

My Mother was on Fentanyl patches for Fibromyalgia. They had to be positioned at certain points on her back that she couldn't reach, so I would put them on her. I was taking one off when it ruptured and some of the gel got on my hand. There wasn't much of it, but, it knocked me silly. I thought that they banned Fentanyl patches?

There have been a series of fentanyl derivatives sold on the RC market. CNN also mentioned homemade stuff. The expected dose compared to the original could be many times more or less, in any case, whereas the homemade stuff this concept gets real scary because all it would take was one mis step during the process could potentially throw it way off. That means potential strength variations in every homemade batch (like ever). Without proper pro lab methods ensuring proper synthesis / purity each time, then you have no dosage reference point to work from. So with something so powerful at such small doses scoring any of this stuff from the street is horror show sinister (which is probably part of the rush for those who live like this).

I had a close friend I knew for 20+ years die a year ago from OD. I had thought it might have been that Zombie Dope: Krocodile; hadnt known much about fentanyl role on the streets, which that CNN piece points out.

Do a google image on "Zombie dope" (krocodilian) and OMG its actual real life zombies with rotting flesh arms falling off total sickness like in a zombie movie.

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