Doesn't the Vatican prove the Pope and catholics are not true Christians?

Being a Christian myself im struggling to see how one can view anything from the Vatican as Christians?

This is not a attack on individual catholics. There are many who do strive to be Christians, even in the clergy and are good people. This thread is more directed at the Vatican and pope.

The Vatican has massive wealth and massive buildings.
To be a Christian is to be christ like right?

So surely all that horded wealth is anti Christian?

Jesus used all his energy and resources in preaching and helping the needy.

If the Vatican are meant to be jesus representatives on earth then it figures they should be living humble lives.
The pope should not be sitting on a throne wearing rich robes and gold?
The Vatican should not be based in a huge palace ?

If the pope and the Bishops REALLY were Christians then surely all that wealth would be spent on helping the needy? The palace converted to homes for the poor and refugees?

Surely the whole foundation of the Catholic denomination is based on one big con? A con meant to twist and use the christian faith to asert control and and gaver wealth?


Would jesus really have approved of the Vatican?

Imagine the Catholic Church as a massive worldwide corporation running thousands of sites around the world, with hundreds of thousand of employees and millions of members..
Of course they will be loaded, they need to be to operate such a vast operation..

Anyway there are individuals that sit on vast wealth.. People who have done nothing but hurt society. They definitely do not deserve it.
At least the church do give something back.. and do help millions around the world.

a reply to: crazyewok

Does your theory extend to all who accumulate wealth?

Televangelist
Every church I've ever been to
Mega Churches
Tax free status

I'd say you're all non-Christ like Imo.

originally posted by: Misterlondon
Imagine the Catholic Church as a massive worldwide corporation running thousands of sites around the world, with hundreds of thousand of employees and millions of members..
Of course they will be loaded, they need to be to operate such a vast operation..

Anyway their are individuals that sit on vast wealth.. People who have done nothing but hurt society. They defiantly do not deserve it.at least the church do give something back.. Maybe not a lot but they do.

But those individuals and corporations dont claim to be gods direct representatives.

The Vatican does.

Its irrelevant that they give "some" back. The fact is jesus snd his disciplines gave EVERYTHING they had.
The pope if he was being christian should be wearing normal clothes , living in a basic house and conducting his buisnes from a basic building with not a ounce of gold horded.

originally posted by: FaunaOrFlora
a reply to: crazyewok

Does your theory extend to all who accumulate wealth?

Televangelist
Every church I've ever been to
Mega Churches
Tax free status

I'd say you're all non-Christ like Imo.

Those are non christian too.

I highlighted the Vatican as that has been the biggest and longest running scam in history with ties deep into the political fabric of western society.


The ones you listed to are scams, just on a lesser scale.

a reply to: crazyewok

For the most part I would agree with you. The minor dissent I would express is in how the current Pope, Francis conducts the affairs of the Vatican. He refused to live in the palace and instead chose to make a guest house his quarters. He has attacked the blatant materialism of the Church including removing Bishops who were living extravagantly and wasting money on costly renovations that were unnecessary. He refused to use the ornate robes and chose a plain silver ring as opposed to the traditional and ornate gold rings of past Popes. When he was elected he opted to ride the same bus as the other Cardinals back tot heir hotel instead of taking the Papal limo. He has publicly expressed that he would prefer the church to bea "poor" church and for the poor. However, outside of the Pope and how he chooses to reign, not a lot has really changed in the Church as a whole and they still maintain massive wealth so one could argue that he's making a public face of change while most of the Church is running business as usual. Overall, the history of the Chirch ofRome very clearly supports your OP.

a reply to: crazyewok

So the only "true Christian" is the bum on the corner?

I suggest giving away all your possessions lest you be considered a "non-true Christian".

a reply to: crazyewok
Ever watch Religilous?
www.imdb.com...

I'm not normally a fan of the New International Version of the bible, but this thread made me think of this and the NIV is easier for me to read.

Matthew 23

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

originally posted by: FaunaOrFlora
a reply to: crazyewok

Does your theory extend to all who accumulate wealth?

Televangelist
Every church I've ever been to
Mega Churches
Tax free status

I'd say you're all non-Christ like Imo.

Exactly. Catholic or Protestant, makes no difference. The leadership of both are in it for the money, as well as all the "Elmer Gantry's" out there. Yet they insist their congregations give until it hurts, so God will bless them via a sowing and reaping principle. It's all a con, and the church is full of grifters. The Vatican is just one aspect of a much broader scam that has been played for 2000 years now.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Misterlondon
Imagine the Catholic Church as a massive worldwide corporation running thousands of sites around the world, with hundreds of thousand of employees and millions of members..
Of course they will be loaded, they need to be to operate such a vast operation..

Anyway their are individuals that sit on vast wealth.. People who have done nothing but hurt society. They defiantly do not deserve it.at least the church do give something back.. Maybe not a lot but they do.

But those individuals and corporations dont claim to be gods direct representatives.

The Vatican does.

Its irrelevant that they give "some" back. The fact is jesus snd his disciplines gave EVERYTHING they had.
The pope if he was being christian should be wearing normal clothes , living in a basic house and conducting his buisnes from a basic building with not a ounce of gold horded.

If they gave all the money away how could they run the church? It would be dead in the water in no time..

And the clothes worn by priests and the Pope is traditional dress.. I mean would millions listen to a person wearing a Nike tracksuit, living in a shed?

I get what your saying, the wealth of the church is vast but it kind of needs a lot of money..
Also a lot of what you are referring too are historical relics they sit on, it's not physical gold bars.

I'm not defending the church but they do a a lot of charity work worldwide and the constantly give to the poor.. They allow their buildings to be used in times of crisis and use by those that need help and support..

originally posted by: FaunaOrFlora
a reply to: crazyewok

So the only "true Christian" is the bum on the corner?

I suggest giving away all your possessions lest you be considered a "non-true Christian".

Im not claiming to be christs direct and official representative am I?


Nor did i say the pope and the clergy should live like bums.

There is a vast diffrence between being a bum and living in gold plated palaces.

There is a middle ground.
One can feed, house and cloth oneself without it being extravagant and wasteful.

a reply to: crazyewok

Would jesus really have approved of the Vatican?

Considering that he told peter to found his church... I'm going to assume yes.

Would he approve of what it has become? I won't assume.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic
That was spot on BH

originally posted by: Misterlondon

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Misterlondon
Imagine the Catholic Church as a massive worldwide corporation running thousands of sites around the world, with hundreds of thousand of employees and millions of members..
Of course they will be loaded, they need to be to operate such a vast operation..

Anyway their are individuals that sit on vast wealth.. People who have done nothing but hurt society. They defiantly do not deserve it.at least the church do give something back.. Maybe not a lot but they do.

But those individuals and corporations dont claim to be gods direct representatives.

The Vatican does.

Its irrelevant that they give "some" back. The fact is jesus snd his disciplines gave EVERYTHING they had.
The pope if he was being christian should be wearing normal clothes , living in a basic house and conducting his buisnes from a basic building with not a ounce of gold horded.

If they gave all the money away how could they run the church? It would be dead in the water in no time..

And the clothes worn by priests and the Pope is traditional dress.. I mean would millions listen to a person wearing a Nike tracksuit, living in a shed?

I get what your saying, the wealth of the church is vast but it kind of needs a lot of money..
Also a lot of what you are referring too are historical relics they sit on, it's not physical gold bars.

I'm not defending the church but they do a a lot of charity work worldwide and the constantly give to the poor.. They allow their buildings to be used in times of crisis and use by those that need help and support..

There is a diffrence between spending money to run the church and spending the money to live extravagantly and upkeeping vast palaces ect

The Vatican should sell off it palaces and move to cheaper more moderate accommodation. If it cant do that then why dont covert some of the space in its vast palaces to house the poor?

The Vatican can donate it relics to museums so it doesn't have to pay to upkeep them. (Plus hoarding relics could be considered idolatry).

And jesus preached and did his duty in normal cloths? Plus again there is a middle ground between a track suite and robes!

No one is saying the pope should live in a shed either . Why not a simple apartment or house? Again jesus did his duty without grand homes.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Yup that scripture is spot on!

a reply to: crazyewok

Problem is, if the Catholics aren't Christian then the Bible is garbage.

They created the Bible when they were even MORE corrupt, not less.

They murdered any competing Christian churches who would not convert.

They never were Christian. Christianity is a lie because it comes from Catholicism.

Had it just developed without Rome it would have legitimacy. Paul is a traitor and the founder of Christianity.

True followers of Jesus were the Nazarenes and Ebionites.

originally posted by: grey580
a reply to: crazyewok

Would jesus really have approved of the Vatican?

Considering that he told peter to found his church... I'm going to assume yes.

Would he approve of what it has become? I won't assume.

What the church became after Peters death has no resemblance to what jesus wanted.

Jesus even stated that after his and his disciples death his teachings were going to be corrupted and hijacked.

Catholicism is a result of that hijacking.

I don't see how you could administer a huge worldwide organization without some serious square feet. I also see no problem with housing something like the Vatican Museum on the premises, nor do I have a problem with the Vatican being its own country. The Vatican is where it is because of historical reasons, since St. Peters is built on the top of a cemetery where, in theory, St. Peter is buried. Yes, it's vast, but remember that during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, this was seen as a way to recruit new members to the faith--and it worked.

Everyone who is able owes himself a visit to the place. Only then will you realize what the issue is. It's a seat of power just like Washington, D.C., a symbol, with striking similarities. For example, St. Peter, s dome overlooks an obelisk at the end of a long street just like the Capitol Dome overlooks the Washington Memorial. Coincidence? I don't think so.

As for the vast hordes of gold, I'm not sure they exist. I know that Pope Francis lives in a humble manner, unlike some of his predecessors, and I think to call the Vatican "un-Christian" is rather simplistic and naive. (I'm not a Christian, BTW.)

Double post. Sorry.

a reply to: schuyler

Again im not saying they dont need administration money.


Im saying it doesn't need to be used so extravagantly.

As for a seat of power?
That again flys in the face of jesuses teachings. Jesus was strictly apolitical.
Christs officials representatives should not be getting involved in worldly power or politics.