EPA Just Declared War On Millions of Car Owners

originally posted by: harvestdog
a reply to: Apollumi

The one's who did the responsible thing like saved up money to buy a older used car because it was in their means will be the one's affected. But hey they are just poor people who can take mass transit I guess.

Poor people get screwed regardless, I understand that point and I'm in the same boat. My car is a 2001 model it very well may not be able to handle higher quantities of ethanol.

In most of the country mass transit doesn't exist, and wages aren't such that poor people can buy new cars but how much of the population should we watch out for? The average age of cars on the road is continuing to go up, but the age is also well past the 2001 cutoff.

www.rita.dot.gov...

Furthermore, this is only a slight increase in the amount of ethanol, and in a couple more years the age of cars will be well past the 2001 cutoff date.

I'm not so sure this is a problem for the nation.

So lower millage means you still burn just as much gasoline.

Makes sense.

Mike Allen of Popular Mechanics says that under ideal conditions, a gasoline-ethanol blend is perfectly acceptable. But consumers cannot control those conditions, and they have no way of knowing if the fuel they're buying has been contaminated. All gasoline is susceptible to changes due to weather and moisture content, but ethanol exacerbates this problem. A higher concentration of alcohol in a gas tank (any gas tank -- at the production facilities, the tankers traveling on the highway, the storage tanks at a gas station, your car's reservoir and even the red plastic can sitting on the floor in your garage) means that the alcohol can grab and hold more water than straight gasoline. If the water concentration gets high enough, the alcohol and water will drop out of suspension, turning the fuel into a globby mess that your car's engine can't use. And it can happen at any stage of the transport, storage and usage process -- even getting worse as it goes along. In short, ethanol increases the chances that your car will be damaged trying to process and burn contaminated gasoline.

HowStuffWorks

Ethanol in fuel was a stupid idea from the beginning. The idea is to get people off of fossil fuels. Wish more people could see it makes things much worse for the poor.

originally posted by: xuenchen
So lower millage means you still burn just as much gasoline.

Makes sense.

Maybe things have changed with newer cars, but 10 years ago all ethanol really did besides subsidize farmers was increase your fuel costs, the lower cost of the fuel wasn't offset by the lower gas mileage you would get (and the fuel cost would often times be higher).

Still, it has been popular as a move towards energy independence. Even if it's not burning the most efficient it meant importing less oil, using your numbers with E85 for example, 15% less petroleum per gallon of gas while dropping mileage by 3%. You end up saving 10% on fuel usage.

The big thing that has changed between then and now is that atleast temporarily the US is now energy independent, we're a net energy exporter. This isn't going to last though, for example the area I live in is in the middle of a dying oil boom and has been left with a nearly unusable water supply... as of 3 weeks ago water started being trucked in for drinking purposes because the city water table was permanently contaminated by fracking. It's another Flint. More areas will follow in the coming years and we'll be back to importing oil.

originally posted by: LDragonFire
a reply to: harvestdog

Shouldn't the title be George W Bush declared war on millions of car owners?

O M G !!!!!
You've got to be kidding! Eight YEARS after Bush is GONE, you have to blame him for this obvious Obamanation!

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: harvestdog

From what I have found after researching where and why we have ethanol gas it sounds like any increase would only effect older cars with carbs and also that the states still have the power to decide how much will be added.
Hardly a war on cars, if anything it is trying to make sure we use all of the corn that we subsidize.

Ethanol eats gaskets.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

well for crying out loud!! before they started using the corn for gas, I could buy it a dollar a dozen... the last time I was at the store, it was 2 ears for a buck!! I refuse to pay that much for it! if they want me to buy their corn so they don't have to subsidize it, then get the price back down to a reasonable level!

Ethanol is not good for engines. Period. But hey, that's ok, right? We're all made of money and can run right out and buy a hybrid. Some seem to have suggested it's our own fault for having an older vehicle or should just replace every damn part and gasket on the thing. How 'bout we stop pumping more crap fuel in our engines? Nah. That'd actually make sense. Can't have that, now can we.

auto.howstuffworks.com...

Mike Allen of Popular Mechanics says that under ideal conditions, a gasoline-ethanol blend is perfectly acceptable. But consumers cannot control those conditions, and they have no way of knowing if the fuel they're buying has been contaminated.
All gasoline is susceptible to changes due to weather and moisture content, but ethanol exacerbates this problem. A higher concentration of alcohol in a gas tank (any gas tank -- at the production facilities, the tankers traveling on the highway, the storage tanks at a gas station, your car's reservoir and even the red plastic can sitting on the floor in your garage) means that the alcohol can grab and hold more water than straight gasoline. If the water concentration gets high enough, the alcohol and water will drop out of suspension, turning the fuel into a globby mess that your car's engine can't use. And it can happen at any stage of the transport, storage and usage process -- even getting worse as it goes along. In short, ethanol increases the chances that your car will be damaged trying to process and burn contaminated gasoline. Let's assume that most of the time the fuel's environmental conditions aren't seriously compromised, its ethanol stays in suspension, and the gasoline is properly reaching its destination. The ethanol in the fuel is still doing damage. Many older fuel system components weren't designed to resist alcohol's corrosive properties, and as ethanol travels through the system it can cause considerable damage. Gasoline companies sometimes even market specific blends as having "engine cleaning" properties, but if the alcohol in the fuel cleans old deposits from engine components, those deposits won't simply dissolve -- they'll probably just get carried along until they're stuck elsewhere. A 2012 study by Auto Alliance showed that some cars (model years 2001 to 2009) showed internal engine damage as the result of using an ethanol fuel blend. Damage to the valves and valve seats was evident in some of the cars tested. One of the 16 cars in the Auto Alliance study failed emissions compliance standards, which means it emitted more pollution than allowed by the EPA. The study also showed that cars running on E15 take a hit on gas mileage -- so they require more fuel to travel the same distance, which counteracts the benefits of diluting it in the first place. Some organizations are trying to delay the launch of E15 until the public understands how the change will affect them. The EPA says that stickers on gas pumps will adequately communicate what E15 means, and assure users that based on the EPA's information, E15 is safe for most cars. The new blend was expected to make its mass-market debut near the end of 2012; but even now, the infrastructure improvements needed to distribute and sell E15 aren't yet in place. In late 2012, AAA released a study that found 95 percent of drivers still don't know what E15 is, and of course, have no idea how or why it could harm their cars. E15 won't be delayed forever -- the agricultural industry lobby is a powerful force -- so perhaps there's still enough time to educate consumers.

More here.
www.fuel-testers.com...

And here.
classroom.synonym.com...

Might as well read this too.

smarterfuelfuture.org...

Toyota, who produces the bestselling car in America (the Camry), said: “Moving from E10 to E15 represents a 50% increase in the alcohol content of the fuel compared to what the vehicles were designed to accept…Accordingly, Toyota cannot recommend the use of fuel with greater than E10 (10% ethanol) for Toyota vehicles currently on the road, except for the FFV’s [emphasis added].”

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: FamCore

Pretty sure street bikes are putting in the premium stuff and burning it at much higher temps. Could he wrong but I think that changes the conversation.

Wow
You really said this didn't you.
You obviously are ignorant, that regardless of the common octanes here in The USA, 10% is Ethanol. " Nearly 97% of U.S. gasoline contains ethanol, typically E10 (10% ethanol, 90% gasoline), to oxygenate the fuel and reduce air pollution. Ethanol is also available as E85 (or flex fuel), which can be used in flexible fuel vehicles, designed to operate on any blend of gasoline and ethanol up to 83%." www.afdc.energy.gov...
I'm sorry, I didn't think that you may not be old enough to drive and didn't need to go to the pump once a week.

originally posted by: xuenchen
So lower millage means you still burn just as much gasoline.

Makes sense.

Yeah well since the advent of of alternative energy less fuel is being consumed.

Which means the less the state makes off the gasoline tax.

So make people buy more of it to offset the revenue shortfall.

Evil.

Evil.

EVIL.

a reply to: Sremmos80

I run ethanol free gas in my bike and everything that has a small motor along with my fishing boat.


Buy a new mower and the first thing they will say is don't run ethanol.


Better off using all that corn to help feed the poor. But hey that would be the right thing to do. We cant have that now can we.

originally posted by: DAVID64
Ethanol is not good for engines. Period. But hey, that's ok, right? We're all made of money and can run right out and buy a hybrid. Some seem to have suggested it's our own fault for having an older vehicle or should just replace every damn part and gasket on the thing. How 'bout we stop pumping more crap fuel in our engines? Nah. That'd actually make sense. Can't have that, now can we.

If you were making a proper wage, buying a new car every 5-7 years would be completely reasonable. Then again if you (collective you, not you personally) were making a proper wage we would all still be on 10 year home loans too rather than 30 year.

originally posted by: neo96
Yeah well since the advent of of alternative energy less fuel is being consumed.

Which means the less the state makes off the gasoline tax.

So make people buy more of it to offset the revenue shortfall.

Evil.

Evil.

EVIL.

Would you prefer they make the necessary tax revenues by having you purchase more items or by increasing the tax? Taxes which fund road maintenance aren't going to disappear, ever.

Is that the EPA's fault, or your fault for making a poor purchasing decision?

What an asenine statement.


You see, not long ago, our purchasing power and choice was part of that whole "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" deal. I was free to follow my happiness through my love of old cars. I love what they represent. Now that freedom is being subverted and chipped away by agencies such as the EPA.

So, I guess my short answer here is yes, the EPA is to blame for poisoning the loves of my life with their retarded effing legislation. They also want to take people's abilities to modify street vehicles for racing purposes. The pastime of a nation doesn't mean $hit to them.

a reply to: Bobaganoosh

So you purchased cars knowing you wouldn't be able to drive them in the future, and now you're upset that that is going to happen in the next couple years? The freedom to pursue happiness also means the freedom to make poor decisions.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: harvestdog

Actually, my original comment does stand. I can't find any info that says we are going to be forced to buy any gas with increased ethanol. So if you don't want it, don't buy it!

The trouble is in most areas the gas comes from the same refineries. The only variation in gas from the same refinery is additives by individual companies. The likelihood is the ethanol is in all your available gas outlets.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: Bobaganoosh

So you purchased cars knowing you wouldn't be able to drive them in the future, and now you're upset that that is going to happen in the next couple years? The freedom to pursue happiness also means the freedom to make poor decisions.

Seriously? Do you live in America?

a reply to: Aazadan

The trouble is there is a huge amount of gas taxes leveed. They just spend it on anything and everything... other than 'infrastructure'.

Buy a diesel. Problem solved.

And FYI , new diesel powered cars like my SUV are LIGHT YEARS ahead of the cantankerous, smokey, noisy slow old things of the past.

Mine is smooth, extremely quiet, incredibly torquey and economical to boot. Plus it doesn't make the great clouds of smoke people are accustomed to - it has a filter to collect particulates and periodically burns them off in a special bake cycle.

And now here's the real kicker that will surprise everyone. My make and model car is also available with a 3200cc petrol engine. I am powered by a 2.0 diesel. The difference in 0 - 60 time is just 0.5 seconds at 9.5 and 10.0 respectively!

originally posted by: Restricted

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: Bobaganoosh

So you purchased cars knowing you wouldn't be able to drive them in the future, and now you're upset that that is going to happen in the next couple years? The freedom to pursue happiness also means the freedom to make poor decisions.

Seriously? Do you live in America?

I used to think I do, but my experiences are so different from people in this thread that I'm questioning that. In reality I live right in the middle of Appalachia, it is essentially a totally different country.