Autogynephilia: The Elephant in the Transgender Bathroom

Another day, another screamingly trans-phobic post on ATS.

Seriously, have we not had enough of this yet?

a reply to: markosity1973

I love how straight 'experts' like to tell us how we in the LGBT community live, despite the fact that they are NOT GAY, usually very biased and talking to a tailored audience.

And, as noted, that joke came from the transgender community.

Regarding your other comments... Okay. You know that I didn't make all this up in my head, yet you address me as if I did and completely ignore the many professionals -- including transgender and transsexual individuals -- who have given it credence. Not to mention the many transgender and transsexual individuals with nothing but personal experience and knowledge who have given it credence.

I understand very well that it is a controversial diagnosis; I understand that many folks do not like the negative connotations as a "disorder" or a "fetish," etc.; and I understand that individuals express it differently at different times.

None of this however translates directly into a sexual predator in the female bathroom. Transvestites are more likely to be the problem there to be completely honest. And I've spoken to a few, what runs through their minds is too dirty for this thread......

Even acknowledging the truth of this as a whole, how is one to distinguish between a harmless transgender/transsexual individual and a predatory transvestite in the bathroom?

originally posted by: Painterz
Another day, another screamingly trans-phobic post on ATS.

Seriously, have we not had enough of this yet?

This is partly true. But I believe it has more to do with a wider awakening of people to see the true end game of what is being perpetuated on all human society all over the world.

The end game is no pretty. When you put on your thinking cap and lead to its logical conclusion. There is only one, and it is not liberation, the freedom you hoped for.

It is not utopia for the masses, and freedom from enslavement.

It is actually all just the opposite.

I I stated here can encompass a book for you to fully understand. Perhaps it will all go right over your head, and perhaps you may scoff at it.

But it is taking place.

originally posted by: Raxoxane
In my country facilities are still segregated.But i have always accompanied my children to public toilets,and when my 10yo son has to pee,i take him into the ladies' toilets with me.No one seems to mind.And when he gets older,i shall be waiting right outside the men's toilet door-and if he's not out within 3-4 minutes-i am going inside to check if he's ok.It has nothing to do with transgenders-there's just too many twisted f's in this world and i refuse to take the slightest atom of a chance with my childrens' safety.

This is a perfect example of good parenting.

Cheers

Completely off topic.


But for you and others who don't believe crimes have ever been committed by a man dressed in women's clothing, there are plenty of links all over the net -- and in my first postings.

Incidentally, trans kids in middle and high school are statistically highest in being assaulted in bathrooms/locker rooms... because their schools forced them to use the bathroom according to their birth sex, but I guess those children don't matter.

All kids matter. All women matter. All lives matter!!!

There is no good reason to exchange one group of victims for another. There are reasonable options -- such as gender neutral bathrooms -- that serve all without deliberately hurting anyone.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: markosity1973

I love how straight 'experts' like to tell us how we in the LGBT community live, despite the fact that they are NOT GAY, usually very biased and talking to a tailored audience.

And, as noted, that joke came from the transgender community.

Regarding your other comments... Okay. You know that I didn't make all this up in my head, yet you address me as if I did and completely ignore the many professionals -- including transgender and transsexual individuals -- who have given it credence. Not to mention the many transgender and transsexual individuals with nothing but personal experience and knowledge who have given it credence.

I understand very well that it is a controversial diagnosis; I understand that many folks do not like the negative connotations as a "disorder" or a "fetish," etc.; and I understand that individuals express it differently at different times.

None of this however translates directly into a sexual predator in the female bathroom. Transvestites are more likely to be the problem there to be completely honest. And I've spoken to a few, what runs through their minds is too dirty for this thread......

Even acknowledging the truth of this as a whole, how is one to distinguish between a harmless transgender/transsexual individual and a predatory transvestite in the bathroom?

The only purpose your op has is to discredit trans people.

I seriously doubt you don't know this.

The purpose of bringing trans issue to light is to have justice for people. It has nothing to do with what could go wrong. People of every persuasion have stats you can use to create a boogey man.

I could give you all kinds of stats as to why black men are more likely to be criminals for instance. It doesn't adress the causality. How about crime and rape amongst Mexican immigrants? That must mean mexicans are dangerous?

You took excerpts form a 30 year old diagnosis and provided a commendable amount of percieved data. It just doesn't coincide with what corperations, schools, and gov workers have been working through for more than a decade who deal with real people not stats.


Of coarse gay and trans people have the same issues anyone else does.

Same as pastors. Do you honestly think there have never been crimes against children and woman by pastors? I guess they shouldn't use bathrooms.

originally posted by: Boadicea

Even acknowledging the truth of this as a whole, how is one to distinguish between a harmless transgender/transsexual individual and a predatory transvestite in the bathroom?

A sexual predator makes themselves known by inappropriate action.

Excessive leering, overt sexually charged language, aggressive behavior and unwelcome touching.

It's a bathroom for chrissakes, not a pickup bar.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

I'm not sure how you can claim bringing truth to anything when you have been proven wrong. What you basically just said is that you don't care if your wrong and are perfectly content in spreading BS and ill informed opinions based on fear and hatred. I'm not sure how anyone can take anything you have said as serious after that statement. You pretty much discredited yourself with that line.

Did I say that I would continue "spreading ill informed opinions" if I was proven wrong? No. I did not. But that seems to be your position.

So better for all of us to just believe what we wish? To think in an echo chamber? You see no value in bring a topic for discussion to be explored and explained and further understood -- whether the original premise is confirmed or debunked?

I understand that I cannot know everything... that I will make mistakes... and that often times the lessons we learn the hard way are often learned best. Mistakes are a natural part of the learning process. Refusing to learn and do better when one knows better may be the biggest mistake of all.

originally posted by: luthier
The only purpose your op has is to discredit trans people.

Yes. This is a HIT piece.

EVERY "group" has a dark side. People are not stupid, naïve, or ignorant to that fact.

Focusing on the positive and Equal Treatment of a minority is not being naïve to the negative aspects of any designated group.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: luthier
The only purpose your op has is to discredit trans people.

Yes. This is a HIT piece.

EVERY "group" has a dark side. People are not stupid, naïve, or ignorant to that fact.

Focusing on the positive and Equal Treatment of a minority is not being naïve to the negative aspects of any designated group.

Not only a hitpiece. Autogenephillia isn't even an accepted theory. It has some serious flaws which are easily and readily available to read about on the web.

This leads to the biggest criticism from a scientific standpoint, in that the theory is speciously unfalsifiable. While at first, it seems like it would be possible to find a trans woman who is attracted to women, but does not erotically fantasize about having Lady Parts, the theory invites one tobeg the question, and take it as fact that one is simply lying about not having such fetishes, because being attracted to women would mean you have autogynephilia.

Entirely apart from being unfalsifiable, the "autogynephilia" label is used derogatorily to separate the "genuine" from the "fake" transsexuals, a practice that has been around pretty much as long as transsexualism.[3] This works within the theory, because the autogynephile group is based on exclusionary criteria, so nearly anything can be used against a trans woman in order to rhetorically move them from the category of "genuine" trans women into that of "autogynephile" "fakes". While it is obvious within the theory that even a single passing interest in a woman would "disqualify" one as "genuine", it is less apparent — because it's implicit in the categorization process — that even simply not looking feminine enough can be used to cast doubt upon the trans woman's actual motivations for transitioning.

Worse so, when any trans woman denies having any erotic fetishes about herself, then this is used as conclusive evidence to show that she is indeed autogynephilic, because only an autogynephile would lie about this. A wonderful catch 22 for anyone suspected of autogynephilia... which of course, could be any trans woman.

And finally at the tail end of all of this criticism, is that even the "genuine transsexuals", are labelled by the theory as if they were men. This allows proponents for the theory that are against homosexuality to dismiss all transsexuals en bloc as either perverts or homos. No trans woman is thus allowed to be considered a genuine woman, despiteneurobiological indications to the contrary.

Autogynephilia, while being entirely unscientific as a theory, still has a use in describing a limited subset of trans people. There most definitely are people for whom autogynephilia is reasonably descriptive. But attempting, as this theory posits, to apply this as a catch all concept to trans people failing to match your expectations of what a genuinely transsexual person would be, is a most inappropriate application of reason.

Let's look at the average sexual predator for a moment ...

Do they ply their disgusting practices in clear sight?

Do they want to attract attention to themselves?

Do they want to make themselves notable or memorable to store security or the police?

No?

Then the "logic" that they are going to "put on a dress" and "pretend to be a woman" and "argue that they have the right to be in the bathroom" is ABSURD in a way that I can't even describe.

That's the core of the "safety" argument here.

Let's just be real.

Just say you don't want Trans* folks in your bathrooms, Conservative America.

Just say that you don't want to have to share what you think of as YOUR rights and YOUR society with "us."

It's okay to tell the truth. I'd judge you a lot less harshly.

See, despite the silly portrayals, most LGBT have developed strengths that straight folks simply have no idea of. Almost every one of us gone through things that would leave most of you crying on the dance-floor. And believe it or not, we're fully used to the fact that for no reason having to do with us personally ... some of you hate us, some of you find us disgusting or amoral or deviant or whatever.

Guess what, we've gotten used to the idea. Stop with the coy slyness and come out and say it.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

I'm actually not that popular in my local T community because I typically do not associate with the CD's or older gals so I come off as a bitc* and perhaps a little bit stuck up. I'm sorry but I like age appropriate friends who present well and carry themselves 100% as ladies. I have also had problems with CD's hitting on me which get promptly shut down as I like men and men only. I also highly disapprove of the closet CD's that are secretly dressing up and going out while hiding it form their wives. I have absolutely no respect for them and find them to be disgusting.

So for anyone that wants honest perspective based in personal experience in the Trans community here it is and I assure you I am not the only person that feels this way towards the creepy part timers.

Thank you for sharing that. I suspect that these creepy crossdressers are exactly those same type of autogynephiles that many are warning us about, and which I addressed in my OP.

I believe we are far closer in agreement than disagreement, but semantics and stereotypes keep getting in the way.

a reply to: Boadicea

Who are these many? Psychology as a whole doesn't put too much into autogenephillia. Not even close to the way you present it.

a reply to: luthier

The only purpose your op has is to discredit trans people.

I seriously doubt you don't know this.

Because you know better than me what is in my heart and mind? Of course you don't. You have no idea what my true purpose and thoughts were. And to presume you do completely discredits you... and everything you say.

But do carry on. I will let your words stand on their own... um... uh... merit.

a reply to: GENERAL EYES

A sexual predator makes themselves known by inappropriate action.

Excessive leering, overt sexually charged language, aggressive behavior and unwelcome touching.

So we'll know when it's too late... and that's okay with you. Gotcha.

Good to know.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: luthier

The only purpose your op has is to discredit trans people.

I seriously doubt you don't know this.

Because you know better than me what is in my heart and mind? Of course you don't. You have no idea what my true purpose and thoughts were. And to presume you do completely discredits you... and everything you say.

But do carry on. I will let your words stand on their own... um... uh... merit.

It's quite possible I know you better than you know yourself if you think this isn't a hit piece?

Did you provide any information on auto genephillias vast critiques? Especially the way you are using it?

Did you research the actual topic of autogenephillia and see where there are serious scientific flaws to this theory?

Nope you took the bait hook line and sinker and regurgitated info without presenting that it is very controversial, scientifically unproven, and not a unamamous or widely accepted theory the way you are using it?

But yeah let's let our words speak for themselves. I'll keep pointing out all your logical fallacies. The religious leaning folk will keep supporting you based in their scripture and the thread will carry on.

I once new a guy that was a cross dresser only at home and in private, I spent time with him socially in group settings, he just wasn't normal and everybody knew it. Eventually he was told by the police that knew about it, to find a mental health doctor after he had committed a crime.

My point to the OP is some of this is a mental health issue, based on "other" behavior they engage in, it just has to be.
You can't say it's 100% a mental health issue for some, it's a choice for sure. The percentage that it's a mental breakdown is unknown, I don't venture a guess. But when it happens to 65 year old retired guy that has 4 kids 3 grandkids and has been married for 35 years....I call that as I see it, a nervous breakdown that creates mental instability.

Has anybody here ever read the anthropological and psychological studies on violence, sexual predators, and rape in sexually repressive cultures?

It's pretty well established. Repressing desire leads to sexual misconduct. Maybe we should be more concerned with far right sexually repressive cultures. Statistical and psychologically speaking they are the worst offenders

a reply to: luthier

My final post on this subject.

I've said before, making a human - you throw all ingredients into a big pot and stir. Any combination of brain cells/chemicals is not only possible, it's probable.

But, I don't see this subject as having any connection to transgender. Its a reach out of desperation to discredit true transgenders IMO.

"Autogynephilia": a disputed diagnosis

"Autogynephilia" is a sex-fueled mental illness made up by Ray Blanchard. Blanchard defines it as "a man’s paraphilic tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman."

Support for this disease model of gender variance is almost nonexistent, limited to a tiny online "autogynephilia" support group with fewer than 40 contributors out of a worldwide population of transwomen numbering in the millions. This support group was taken down in early 2005. The disease was also prominently featured in The Man Who Would Be Queen by J. Michael Bailey and has been heavily promoted by Anne Lawrence, a former anesthesiologist who has taken up "autogynephile" as a personal identity. www.tsroadmap.com...

a reply to: Boadicea

Off topic but linked to in your OP... interesting.

You linked two cases which while sad is incredibly underwhelming as far as trying to prove a danger goes.