Autogynephilia: The Elephant in the Transgender Bathroom

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Allowing everyone to use the facilities appropriate to their gender is not the same as "allowing men access to women's spaces."

Yes it is. Realistically how are they supposed to police that? Where is the line? Most of the stores that implement these policies so far won't challenge anyone regardless of their appearance or where they are in the process of transitioning. Nobody wants to seem a bigot, so if a male with a full beard, jeans and no indication that he is transgender enters a female restroom few people will challenge it.

Also, if it actually becomes the law of the land, how in the heck to they regulate that? What will the legalize be on that one? You can't say if they are wearing a dress and look enough like a girl, or if they have short hair and look enough like a male then let them by. There is no realistic way to spell out who should and shouldn't go where. Because of this, they are just going to skip to the end and implement unisex bathrooms, so women will have no choice but to have men in proximity in vulnerable situations. So I guess technically there just won't be any female spaces where men can't be, which is even worse.

Saudi Arabia has lots of women only places.

Red Herring. You can do better.

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Allowing everyone to use the facilities appropriate to their gender is not the same as "allowing men access to women's spaces."

Yes it is. Realistically how are they supposed to police that? Where is the line? Most of the stores that implement these policies so far won't challenge anyone regardless of their appearance or where they are in the process of transitioning. Nobody wants to seem a bigot, so if a male with a full beard, jeans and no indication that he is transgender enters a female restroom few people will challenge it.

Also, if it actually becomes the law of the land, how in the heck to they regulate that? What will the legalize be on that one? You can't say if they are wearing a dress and look enough like a girl, or if they have short hair and look enough like a male then let them by. There is no realistic way to spell out who should and shouldn't go where. Because of this, they are just going to skip to the end and implement unisex bathrooms, so women will have no choice but to have men in proximity in vulnerable situations. So I guess technically there just won't be any female spaces where men can't be, which is even worse.

No it's not. Realistically how are they supposed to police the "verification of genital status" required in the North Carolina and similar laws. It is absurd to think that a man with a full beard is going to be able to walk into a women's bathroom (or changing room, or locker room) and not attract attention. It boggles the mind that you would even argue such a thing.

Public attention is the very last thing a predator wants.

There have been multiple examples already of "masculine looking women" (and these are actually very pleasant normal looking ladies) being accosted because they are "invading private spaces."

The only private space that's being invaded by these "bathroom laws" are the ones, to put it bluntly, between our legs.

You're already established that all of these public spaces are deadly dangerous for women ALREADY. Nothing has to change for the apparent throng of male predators to attack.

If this is true, then the only logical approach is to make the spaces SAFER, not to throw Trans* women and girls to these wolves that you've done such a fine job of describing.

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Allowing everyone to use the facilities appropriate to their gender is not the same as "allowing men access to women's spaces."

Yes it is. Realistically how are they supposed to police that? Where is the line? Most of the stores that implement these policies so far won't challenge anyone regardless of their appearance or where they are in the process of transitioning. Nobody wants to seem a bigot, so if a male with a full beard, jeans and no indication that he is transgender enters a female restroom few people will challenge it.

Also, if it actually becomes the law of the land, how in the heck to they regulate that? What will the legalize be on that one? You can't say if they are wearing a dress and look enough like a girl, or if they have short hair and look enough like a male then let them by. There is no realistic way to spell out who should and shouldn't go where. Because of this, they are just going to skip to the end and implement unisex bathrooms, so women will have no choice but to have men in proximity in vulnerable situations. So I guess technically there just won't be any female spaces where men can't be, which is even worse.

Saudi Arabia has lots of women only places.

Red Herring. You can do better.

How so is it a red herring?

The culture is an example of men and women being separated.

A Sufi woman created the burqa she was tired of cat calls.

Separating men and woman made violance against women worse. So did the sexual repression.

a reply to: luthier

The Values of North Americans cannot be compared to the values of Europeans.

And you certainly can't expect Immigrant Muslims to live with those same Values and 'just get over it' either now can you? You know full well this is Pandora's Box waiting to blow up. It will cause a Jihad.

Which comes to 'why' they are flooding the West with immigrants who are highly incompatible with most of the Values of our Culture. If 'the majority' of the People are having a hard time with this sh't ramming by the Gov't and other involved Parties, do you honestly think these muslim countries who practice Islam, and are now moving here, are going to do to deal with this?

You can bet your booties THIS was a planned event from the get go.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
a reply to: luthier

Just because you don't personally have an issue with nudity doesn't mean you have a right to infringe on the privacy of others. There are plenty of nudity camps if you want one.
I'm a martial
Artist as well and my Sufi taught me a thing or two like no one has any business just coming up to you and asking the time.....

Interesting. I studied Sufism as well but it didn't teach me anything about fighting.

Did you miss where I said I respect the religious view on nudity and accommodations should be made for those people.

The reason I personally don't agree with people being afraid of nudity is because there is a direct link to sexual repression and violence. Even with apes.

Prudence in the form of religious modesty is because the religious see the nakedness as sexual. Where as in cultures where nudity is normal the oversexualization of naked body isn't as bad. Like Sweden for instance or Germany, France, or Italy. Where they all have unisex bathrooms without issues.

Guess that why some people from sudan and Somalia can't control themselves in Europe.

I lived in Germany for three years. This was not my experience. While unisex bathrooms exist there was still a male or female option in most places. People keep saying "In Europe they..." and I don't think it is as widespread as many would like to think. Also, Europe is more mature about a lot of these things that's true. The culture I think would make for an easier transition with fewer incidents if unisex bathrooms were the only option. I will say I was harassed much less in Europe than I ever was in the U.S. It's hard to say why that is, but it is.

originally posted by: awareness10
a reply to: luthier

The Values of North Americans cannot be compared to the values of Europeans.

And you certainly can't expect Immigrant Muslims to live with those same Values and 'just get over it' either now can you? You know full well this is Pandora's Box waiting to blow up. It will cause a Jihad.

Which comes to 'why' they are flooding the West with immigrants who are highly incompatible with most of the Values of our Culture. If 'the majority' of the People are having a hard time with this sh't ramming by the Gov't and other involved Parties, do you honestly think these muslim countries who practice Islam, and are now moving here, are going to do to deal with this?

You can bet your booties THIS was a planned event from the get go.

I don't think that the trans issue is a planned event for the trans people or the teachers, psychiatrists , and social workers who have to deal with transgender abuse issues, suicide and murders.

I think accepting people for who they are is inherently American and the work of Locke, Rouseau, Jefferson, Adams and all the enlightenment era philosophers set up a society where religious dogma doesn't make public policy. In fact I would say its actually the US that taught Europe this when we revolted and put in place the principles developed in the Glorious revolution I'm England.

But hey you can go with the Alex Jones story.

Well some sociology would tell you why mixed with psychology and anthro.

My wife is Polish. I have spent years in Europe as well. Poland doesn't have unisex bathrooms. Paris. Everywhere. Germany many places I went. Italy. Lots of places. Spain I drank to much and don't remember much accept the tapas is San sabastion is worth selling all my things right now and moving.

So let's compromise make unisex bathrooms with female only areas. Except what are you going to do check for trans women? Its possible you already peed right next to a trans woman and you lived to see another day.

a reply to: luthier

I think you're right about how some of the Founders and others principals of the Enlightenment would have viewed the LGBT question, at least in the imaginary context of a different time.

Thomas Jefferson lobbied for a change in Virginia law to change the punishment for sodomy (and any homosexual act) from death to castration (for men) or mutilation (for women). Thomas Jefferson - Amendment VIII

This was actually, though it is difficult to understand in our current terms of acceptable punishments, a liberalization of the policy ... a "kindness" as it were. His argument was based around making the punishment "proportional" to the crime.

Virginia roundly rejected Jefferson's suggestion at the time. Sodomy remained punishable by death.

a reply to: luthier

Sure ok...

And, What is it with you and Alex Jones? Do you always deflect and toss out 'oh but you can go with Alex Jones' whenever anyone questions you your supposed intelligent theories as to Why the entire country should do what you and a handful of people demand?

Should i toss out one to you too, like umm ''But hey you can go with Michael Moore and his stories''.

You sound Ridiculous when you do that you know? or maybe you didn't know?

I didn't ask you about acceptance for who people are, you're diverting as usual.

I asked you what you thought Muslims would do when they come to America and are culture shocked, appalled and flipped out by what would clearly be an infringement of their Holy Book. They aren't going to just go okay i guess Allah wont mind if my Wife and Kids are in the Can and some Dude walks in holding a handbag, deep voice and then takes a piss next to them.

There are soooo many infringements on their belief system that America will have the same appeal to them as Sodom and Gomorrah would.

originally posted by: luthier
Well some sociology would tell you why mixed with psychology and anthro.

My wife is Polish. I have spent years in Europe as well. Poland doesn't have unisex bathrooms. Paris. Everywhere. Germany many places I went. Italy. Lots of places. Spain I drank to much and don't remember much accept the tapas is San sabastion is worth selling all my things right now and moving.

So let's compromise make unisex bathrooms with female only areas. Except what are you going to do check for trans women? Its possible you already peed right next to a trans woman and you lived to see another day.

Oh I probably have. I don't mind peeing next to a trans woman. How many times and how many different ways do I have to say that isn't the issue? In fact, that isn't the issue for most people that are uncomfortable with this. I know that you really, REALLY want it to be, because then yeah... You're right we're that's awful and unfair. I understand that you are invested in everyone who opposes this being some trans hating bigot, but it's just not the case no matter how many times you repeat it and try to conflate an assumed bigotry with a genuine fear of sexual predators (that are probably, not trans BTW. There I explained it AGAIN). It is a dishonest tactic.

I have to go see a lady about a horse, so I'm out for a while.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: luthier

I think you're right about how some of the Founders and others principals of the Enlightenment would have viewed the LGBT question, at least in the imaginary context of a different time.

Thomas Jefferson lobbied for a change in Virginia law to change the punishment for sodomy (and any homosexual act) from death to castration (for men) or mutilation (for women).

This was actually, though it is difficult to understand in our current terms of acceptable punishments, a liberalization of the policy ... a "kindness" as it were. His argument was based around making the punishment "proportional" to the crime.

Virginia roundly rejected Jefferson's suggestion at the time.

It's also a case of the ideas taking physical form to change the way society works. This why their is a steady progression towards liberty for all. The founders were raised religious and still had imprints and bias. Although many people think Washington was gay not sure if that's just because he loved designing uniforms or what but some think he has some allusion in letters. If you were going to be killed for it you can understand why he didn't come out. Same with Lincoln all though there seems to be more record there with him.

Anyhow it's the evolution of thinking about these principles. Locke was extremely compassionate and even wrote about ethical animal treatment.

Let's not forget all men had autogynephilia back then.

They painted miles on their face, powdered wigs, wore shiny shoes with heals and stalkings, some even pierceced their penises to pull them back out of the way.

originally posted by: awareness10
a reply to: luthier


And you certainly can't expect Immigrant Muslims to live with those same Values and 'just get over it' either now can you? You know full well this is Pandora's Box waiting to blow up. It will cause a Jihad.

Which comes to 'why' they are flooding the West with immigrants who are highly incompatible with most of the Values of our Culture. If 'the majority' of the People are having a hard time with this sh't ramming by the Gov't and other involved Parties, do you honestly think these muslim countries who practice Islam, and are now moving here, are going to do to deal with this?

You can bet your booties THIS was a planned event from the get go.

It certainly sounds like something Jones would rant about. I can picture him ranting all of that right now.

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: luthier
Well some sociology would tell you why mixed with psychology and anthro.

My wife is Polish. I have spent years in Europe as well. Poland doesn't have unisex bathrooms. Paris. Everywhere. Germany many places I went. Italy. Lots of places. Spain I drank to much and don't remember much accept the tapas is San sabastion is worth selling all my things right now and moving.

So let's compromise make unisex bathrooms with female only areas. Except what are you going to do check for trans women? Its possible you already peed right next to a trans woman and you lived to see another day.

Oh I probably have. I don't mind peeing next to a trans woman. How many times and how many different ways do I have to say that isn't the issue? In fact, that isn't the issue for most people that are uncomfortable with this. I know that you really, REALLY want it to be, because then yeah... You're right we're that's awful and unfair. I understand that you are invested in everyone who opposes this being some trans hating bigot, but it's just not the case no matter how many times you repeat it and try to conflate an assumed bigotry with a genuine fear of sexual predators (that are probably, not trans BTW. There I explained it AGAIN). It is a dishonest tactic.

I have to go see a lady about a horse, so I'm out for a while.

Or I have worked with trans kids in antibullying programs and I am more concerned with them than adults that can make decisions for themselves. Two years ago I taught a kid who was blinded in one eye from being punched in the head and having her orbital collapse into her eye socket.

So yeah it's an issue for me. Even as a strait guy with three kids. Two of them girls.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: DestroyDestroyDestroy
"Treat others how you would like to be treated." It's pretty basic.

Response #2:

If I have a mental issue about my body image, I want people to tell me I have a problem and get me to seek treatment. I do not want them to reinforce my mental issue and help convince me I am normal.

We don't tell anorexics to keep starving themselves. We don't tell bulimics to keep eating.

You are not seriously comparing an eating disorder to being trans, are you? Lmfao. Do I really need to point out the flaws in that comparison? We tell people with eating disorders to get better because it's a life threatening mental illness. Being trans isn't going to kill you.

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: awareness10
a reply to: luthier


And you certainly can't expect Immigrant Muslims to live with those same Values and 'just get over it' either now can you? You know full well this is Pandora's Box waiting to blow up. It will cause a Jihad.

Which comes to 'why' they are flooding the West with immigrants who are highly incompatible with most of the Values of our Culture. If 'the majority' of the People are having a hard time with this sh't ramming by the Gov't and other involved Parties, do you honestly think these muslim countries who practice Islam, and are now moving here, are going to do to deal with this?

You can bet your booties THIS was a planned event from the get go.

It certainly sounds like something Jones would rant about. I can picture him ranting all of that right now.

And then sells you x ray glasses so you can be safe in bathrooms and know if guys are in there.

originally posted by: luthier

Let's not forget all men had autogynephilia back then.

They painted miles on their face, powdered wigs, wore shiny shoes with heals and stalkings, some even pierced their penises to pull them back out of the way.

That puts the idea in a certain perspective, doesn't it? LOL.

Add to that the fact that "homosexuality" was basically unknown as a concept (and as an identity) until the late 19th century, which interestingly coincides with police harassment and renewed enforcement of sodomy laws etc.

The effect of cultural definitions cannot be overestimated.

a reply to: redhorse

I didn't think you would provide me with an answer. Not because an answer doesn't exist, but because the answer doesn't match your narrative.

A coalition of over 200 national, state and local organizations across the U.S. that work with sexual assault and domestic violence survivors are objecting to the justifications given by lawmakers to forbid transgender people from using the bathroom of their choosing.

These organizations asked for “support of full and equal access for the transgender community," according to a statement on Thursday by a coalition under the advocacy group National Task Force to End Sexual and Domestic Violence Against Women.

“Over 200 municipalities and 18 states have nondiscrimination laws protecting transgender people’s access to facilities consistent with the gender they live every day,” according to the coalition. "None of those jurisdictions have [sic] seen a rise in sexual violence or other public safety issues due to nondiscrimination laws. Assaulting another person in a restroom or changing room remains against the law in every single state.”

abcnews.go.com...

Every time someone gives me the "it will increase the chances of a predator in the bathroom" myth, I always know it's one of two reasons: 1) they've drunk the kool-aid that the religious right is feeding them, or 2) they are deliberately lying to cover their distaste for transgender people. Those are the only two reasons to use that line of bs. There simply is no substantive proof that this myth is true. None.

originally posted by: nullafides
I was raised to believe that my rights extend to the reach of my fingertips. But, that my reach of rights did not eclipse the reach of others rights.

I'll be upfront, and say that I am rather conflicted on the topic of gender dysphoria. A very dear friend suddenly announced at the age of thirty that he was gender dysphoric, and handled things in a traumatic fashion with regards to all those around him. Including his fiance. Given how this hit home to me in a very real, personal way...as we *were* very close.... I have to state that I am conflicted.

I feel that those who are transgender deserve to feel at ease.

However, does their right to do so come at the cost of the ease of others?

Where is the line drawn?

This is not about whether or not someone who is transgender is right, or a good person.

This is about the right of all involved. And, we are ALL involved.

Let me help you with that. Has your friend EVER asked you to have sex with him? My guess is No, so why do you care. When I was about 30 a good friend of mine that I've known since the 5th grade told me he was gay. He told me he would understand if I no longer wanted to be friends. I told him as simple as I could that we've been friends for years, and at no time did he ever do anything that made me feel uncomfortable or try to hit on me so I don't care who he wants to sleep with, it's none of my biz. If you are a true friend it shouldn't matter to you what he does in is own home. The fact of the matter is that everyone in the world does something that someone else doesn't like and thinks should be a crime. If what he does makes you feel creeped out then maybe YOU need to rethink what friendship means to you. Your rights end at your finger tips like you said, but so do his. That does not mean that either of you have to act in a way to make the other feel more comfortable. It means that if YOU feel uncomfortable YOU have the right to walk away. Or look at it this way, think of it as music. I don't like Rap music I like Country. That doesn't mean I have a right to stop others from liking Rap, it only means that I can choose not to hang out with people who do like it. I don't understand them or how they can stand that type of music, but that's the great thing about civil rights, they don't need me to understand. All they need is for me to know that they have that right, and to leave them alone until they try to force me to listen to it.

In short until someone kicks open the bathroom door to check under my hood then I don't care where they choose to pee. If it ever happens THEN I will take action and punish that person based on THEIR actions. I'm not going to punish someone just because of some foolish fear of what MIGHT happen. I'm 51 years old and I've never had it happen yet and I doubt it ever will.

Also to others here, please stop bringing your kids safety into everything. If their safety were your prime concern then you would stop risking their life every time you drive to the store or answer the phone. As of last year 160,000 kids under the age of 12 die every year because some parent only turned their back for a second and their kid fell into the pool. Or Mom/Dad were in a hurry to get home and ran a red light or was speeding. So please leave your kids out of it. If you're a close minded snob just say so. The fact that you so willingly lie about your reasons tells me that I would rather have a tranny friend than one who lies to me.

In this country we punish people for what THEY do, NOT for what they MIGHT do.

One last thing to Raxoxane. LEAVE YOUR SON ALONE YOU'RE A GREATER THREAT TO HIM THAN SOME GUY IN A DRESS. If he's 10 odds are he's seen it and came away laughing until you told him to be scared, and now he won't go to the bathroom alone out of fear. Nice work Mom !!!!!!

Sorry I thought I was through. I was just talking to my son (Who is a Cop by the way) That along with the 160,000 kids that die each year under the eagle eyes of their parents another 200,000 go missing, most under 10, from a playground, and with at least 1 parent watching. (Well,,, watching something anyway) Should we ban playgrounds or just tell parents to turn off their phone and WATCH the kid when your WATCHING the kid.

originally posted by: MikeA
The fact of the matter is that everyone in the world does something that someone else doesn't like and thinks should be a crime. If what he does makes you feel creeped out then maybe YOU need to rethink what friendship means to you. Your rights end at your finger tips like you said, but so do his. That does not mean that either of you have to act in a way to make the other feel more comfortable. It means that if YOU feel uncomfortable YOU have the right to walk away.

This would solve 99.9% of our problems associated with the so-called "Culture Wars."

Also shortened to ... "live and let live."

You post is amazing. Thank you!

a reply to: DestroyDestroyDestroy

Oh right Modesty is so yesterday... Well if that were so then why don't transgender who haven't transitioned their sex organs just go in the bathroom with the guys instead of forcing all women to accept having guys in the bathroom ???????
Go on give me one reason