Autogynephilia: The Elephant in the Transgender Bathroom

originally posted by: luthier


Your predator prey story is interesting. However it doesn't fit the mo.

Rapists usually know the person and lure them into the situation.

Those aren't the ones to be worried about. The ones to be worried about are the about 12% of sexual predators (strictly speaking violent sexual predators/rapists with that number, the incidences of predators that will do less invasive things are higher) that are "trollers"; opportunists who troll areas waiting for a vulnerable person in a vulnerable situation. Not all sexual predators know their victims, and most of the more petty and well, we'll call them small assaults (peeking, filming, grabbing, or exposing themselves) are usually fly by and not someone that the victim knows. It's the latter category, the smaller ills that are more likely.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: redhorse

I will ask you what I asked other posters with no adequate answer: What are the statistics for harassment and/or assault by predators in women's public bathrooms in the cities and states where these non-discrimination laws have been in place for up to 10 years? How do the statistics compare to the same areas before the non-discrimination laws were put into place?

There aren't any that I know of. This is at the moment a relatively safe space. Asking for statistics to support your argument against and eventuality doesn't make sense. What I am saying is that bathrooms and changing rooms will be more prone to sexual assault if men can have access, currently, in most places, men don't have access. Their presence there would be suspicious.

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
a reply to: DestroyDestroyDestroy
It's actually also around locker rooms showers and dorms where full nudity can occur.
This is definitely about privacy between the sexes.

Right, but nudity is really not a big deal, is it? We don't live in Victorian times; in fact, our culture is arguably over-sexualized. I don't know why we cling to these prudish virtues; nudity is a natural state, and in many tribal areas of the world the parts we deem "private" are just parts.

Around .3% of the population is transgender. Out of every 300 different naked people you see in a locker room, one of them could be transgender.

It's like we're pretending that a woman will see a transgender man in a locker room and think, "Oh No!!!! Not A PeNiS1!1!!1 i Am TrAuMATiZed foR LiFE!!1!1!!1!" If the script was flipped, do you think a man who saw a naked transgender woman in a public shower would develop PTSD? Come on... you don't care, I don't care, nobody actually cares. It's all bulls***. Live and let live.

Not only that, but I don't think most normal trans people would want to show off their junk in public places. You have to realize that transsexuality is a rather extreme form of sexual deviance (.3% of the population, very small minority), and transgender/transsexual people know it. People are people; they want no more to be judged in public for being different than you or I do.

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: luthier


Your predator prey story is interesting. However it doesn't fit the mo.

Rapists usually know the person and lure them into the situation.

Those aren't the ones to be worried about. The ones to be worried about are the about 12% of sexual predators (strictly speaking violent sexual predators/rapists with that number, the incidences of predators that will do less invasive things are higher) that are "trollers"; opportunists who troll areas waiting for a vulnerable person in a vulnerable situation. Not all sexual predators know their victims, and most of the more petty and well, we'll call them small assaults (peeking, filming, grabbing, or exposing themselves) are usually fly by and not someone that the victim knows. It's the latter category, the smaller ills that are more likely.

The ones you know are not to be worried about? So don't worry about 88 percent of rapists just worry about the trollers.

How many bathroom rapes have happened in the 14 States with trans friendly policies several of which a decade in service.

Or gov workers? Universities?

You are OK with statistically speaking out these trans people in harm's way for a threat that doesn't exist?

I understand the religious aspect of nudity. I don't agree with it but I will respect it. For those people schools also make accomedations. There are also religious schools.

At the absolute very least the gov needs to implement as slap monkey says a bathroom that doesn't seperate trans from everybody but allows for safety and privacy.

Personally I think that's rediculous buy a fair compromise. Though I may be naive here I am an average strait white dude so I don't know how it would feel to be seperated from society as 'other' than normal

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: redhorse

I will ask you what I asked other posters with no adequate answer: What are the statistics for harassment and/or assault by predators in women's public bathrooms in the cities and states where these non-discrimination laws have been in place for up to 10 years? How do the statistics compare to the same areas before the non-discrimination laws were put into place?

There aren't any that I know of. This is at the moment a relatively safe space. Asking for statistics to support your argument against and eventuality doesn't make sense. What I am saying is that bathrooms and changing rooms will be more prone to sexual assault if men can have access, currently, in most places, men don't have access. Their presence there would be suspicious.

Except this hasn't been proven or statistically proven.

Common sense doesn't always mean it's real. It's based on perception. There are many psychological things that don't follow common sense. For instance as society gains standard of living the suicide rate increases.

Your argueing something that is not proven as if its a fact.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: redhorse

I will ask you what I asked other posters with no adequate answer: What are the statistics for harassment and/or assault by predators in women's public bathrooms in the cities and states where these non-discrimination laws have been in place for up to 10 years? How do the statistics compare to the same areas before the non-discrimination laws were put into place?

There aren't any that I know of. This is at the moment a relatively safe space. Asking for statistics to support your argument against and eventuality doesn't make sense. What I am saying is that bathrooms and changing rooms will be more prone to sexual assault if men can have access, currently, in most places, men don't have access. Their presence there would be suspicious.

Except this hasn't been proven or statistically proven.

Common sense doesn't always mean it's real. It's based on perception. There are many psychological things that don't follow common sense. For instance as society gains standard of living the suicide rate increases.

Your argueing something that is not proven as if its a fact.

So are you. "We don't know what will happen" applies to both sides of the argument.

I am in favor of increasing the safety and privacy of all public facilities (bathrooms, changing rooms, locker rooms, etc.) by whatever means are necessary.

It seems that the real issue ... the authentic, troubling and horrifying issue ... is how unsafe these facilities currently are with no change in the laws regarding Trans* folks either pro or con. IN other words, if Trans* folks were all relegated to some facility out back so no one had to be troubled or embarrassed (or whatever the insane right-wing logic is here) there would STILL be a very upsetting and troubling crisis with public (pubic?) safety

If safety were the primary concern here I would expect to see far more suggestions of support for changing the facilities, rather than excluding those who are, arguably, just as or more vulnerable to assault.

I wonder WHY that's not the case?

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: luthier


Your predator prey story is interesting. However it doesn't fit the mo.

Rapists usually know the person and lure them into the situation.

Those aren't the ones to be worried about. The ones to be worried about are the about 12% of sexual predators (strictly speaking violent sexual predators/rapists with that number, the incidences of predators that will do less invasive things are higher) that are "trollers"; opportunists who troll areas waiting for a vulnerable person in a vulnerable situation. Not all sexual predators know their victims, and most of the more petty and well, we'll call them small assaults (peeking, filming, grabbing, or exposing themselves) are usually fly by and not someone that the victim knows. It's the latter category, the smaller ills that are more likely.

The ones you know are not to be worried about? So don't worry about 88 percent of rapists just worry about the trollers.

I think a violent sexual assault in a bathroom is unlikely but not impossible. However, a troller looking for an opportunity for voyeurism or any number of "lesser" assaults is quite likely. In the context of allowing men access to women's spaces, specifically, this one thing, right here that we are talking about, trollers are going to have a proverbial field day.

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: redhorse

I will ask you what I asked other posters with no adequate answer: What are the statistics for harassment and/or assault by predators in women's public bathrooms in the cities and states where these non-discrimination laws have been in place for up to 10 years? How do the statistics compare to the same areas before the non-discrimination laws were put into place?

There aren't any that I know of. This is at the moment a relatively safe space. Asking for statistics to support your argument against and eventuality doesn't make sense. What I am saying is that bathrooms and changing rooms will be more prone to sexual assault if men can have access, currently, in most places, men don't have access. Their presence there would be suspicious.

Except this hasn't been proven or statistically proven.

Common sense doesn't always mean it's real. It's based on perception. There are many psychological things that don't follow common sense. For instance as society gains standard of living the suicide rate increases.

Your argueing something that is not proven as if its a fact.

So are you. "We don't know what will happen" applies to both sides of the argument.

I do know. Thats what I am saying. I teach wrestling and judo part of a school program. This is the third state I have done so in. My wife is a university professor and researcher. I teach self defense classes to kids twice a year as an anti bullying program. The states who implemented allowing gender identity bathrooms and the schools haven't had any problems. Corperations haven't either.

The reason this is an issue in schools is because it's the front lines for these kids getting bullyied. Severe bullying and suicide sometimes murder. At a very very high rate.

This isn't just a PC issue.

Though I don't see any reason to impeade anyone's liberty.

I think a little of Franklin's those that give up liberty for safety don't deserve either applies here. People should be free. They shouldn't be infringed apon because a bad group of people exist.

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: luthier


Your predator prey story is interesting. However it doesn't fit the mo.

Rapists usually know the person and lure them into the situation.

Those aren't the ones to be worried about. The ones to be worried about are the about 12% of sexual predators (strictly speaking violent sexual predators/rapists with that number, the incidences of predators that will do less invasive things are higher) that are "trollers"; opportunists who troll areas waiting for a vulnerable person in a vulnerable situation. Not all sexual predators know their victims, and most of the more petty and well, we'll call them small assaults (peeking, filming, grabbing, or exposing themselves) are usually fly by and not someone that the victim knows. It's the latter category, the smaller ills that are more likely.

The ones you know are not to be worried about? So don't worry about 88 percent of rapists just worry about the trollers.

I think a violent sexual assault in a bathroom is unlikely but not impossible. However, a troller looking for an opportunity for voyeurism or any number of "lesser" assaults is quite likely. In the context of allowing men access to women's spaces, specifically, this one thing, right here that we are talking about, trollers are going to have a proverbial field day.

Thats a great theory now prove it.

So what stops the janitor from putting an SD camera in your bathroom?

Allowing everyone to use the facilities appropriate to their gender is not the same as "allowing men access to women's spaces."

The fact is utterly ignored that there have been ordinances and practices that have legally allowed Trans* folks to use the appropriate facilities FOR YEARS and these supposed "field day" assaults have not materialized.

In fact, we DO have statistics that demonstrate clearly that this is a manufactured crisis on the part of the right-wing.

Now ... the serious question, what are we going to do to make public spaces more secure and more private for ALL Americans?

originally posted by: Gryphon66
I am in favor of increasing the safety and privacy of all public facilities (bathrooms, changing rooms, locker rooms, etc.) by whatever means are necessary.

It seems that the real issue ... the authentic, troubling and horrifying issue ... is how unsafe these facilities currently are with no change in the laws regarding Trans* folks either pro or con. IN other words, if Trans* folks were all relegated to some facility out back so no one had to be troubled or embarrassed (or whatever the insane right-wing logic is here) there would STILL be a very upsetting and troubling crisis with public (pubic?) safety

If safety were the primary concern here I would expect to see far more suggestions of support for changing the facilities, rather than excluding those who are, arguably, just as or more vulnerable to assault.

I wonder what that's not the case?

You may as well insert severe burn victim. Another thing that makes people uncomfortable. Although I guess for some reason people feel compassion for one and not the other.

a reply to: luthier

Just because you don't personally have an issue with nudity doesn't mean you have a right to infringe on the privacy of others. There are plenty of nudity camps if you want one. Elephant
Ibe done martial arts as well and my shifu taught me a thing or two like no one has any business just coming up to you and asking the time.....

a reply to: Gryphon66

Now ... the serious question, what are we going to do to make public spaces more secure and more private for ALL Americans?

Nothing because that isn't the issue is it?

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Gryphon66

Now ... the serious question, what are we going to do to make public spaces more secure and more private for ALL Americans?

Nothing because that isn't the issue is it?

Let's see.

Hope springs eternal.

a reply to: DestroyDestroyDestroy

Actually it's turning more into Ancient Rome by the day, where absolutely Any G*d damn thing goes.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Allowing everyone to use the facilities appropriate to their gender is not the same as "allowing men access to women's spaces."

Yes it is. Realistically how are they supposed to police that? Where is the line? Most of the stores that implement these policies so far won't challenge anyone regardless of their appearance or where they are in the process of transitioning. Nobody wants to seem a bigot, so if a male with a full beard, jeans and no indication that he is transgender enters a female restroom few people will challenge it.

Also, if it actually becomes the law of the land, how in the heck to they regulate that? What will the legalize be on that one? You can't say if they are wearing a dress and look enough like a girl, or if they have short hair and look enough like a male then let them by. There is no realistic way to spell out who should and shouldn't go where. Because of this, they are just going to skip to the end and implement unisex bathrooms, so women will have no choice but to have men in proximity in vulnerable situations. So I guess technically there just won't be any female spaces where men can't be, which is even worse.

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
a reply to: luthier

Just because you don't personally have an issue with nudity doesn't mean you have a right to infringe on the privacy of others. There are plenty of nudity camps if you want one.
I'm a martial
Artist as well and my Sufi taught me a thing or two like no one has any business just coming up to you and asking the time.....

Interesting. I studied Sufism as well but it didn't teach me anything about fighting.

Did you miss where I said I respect the religious view on nudity and accommodations should be made for those people.

The reason I personally don't agree with people being afraid of nudity is because there is a direct link to sexual repression and violence. Even with apes.

Prudence in the form of religious modesty is because the religious see the nakedness as sexual. Where as in cultures where nudity is normal the oversexualization of naked body isn't as bad. Like Sweden for instance or Germany, France, or Italy. Where they all have unisex bathrooms without issues.

Guess that why some people from sudan and Somalia can't control themselves in Europe.

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Allowing everyone to use the facilities appropriate to their gender is not the same as "allowing men access to women's spaces."

Yes it is. Realistically how are they supposed to police that? Where is the line? Most of the stores that implement these policies so far won't challenge anyone regardless of their appearance or where they are in the process of transitioning. Nobody wants to seem a bigot, so if a male with a full beard, jeans and no indication that he is transgender enters a female restroom few people will challenge it.

Also, if it actually becomes the law of the land, how in the heck to they regulate that? What will the legalize be on that one? You can't say if they are wearing a dress and look enough like a girl, or if they have short hair and look enough like a male then let them by. There is no realistic way to spell out who should and shouldn't go where. Because of this, they are just going to skip to the end and implement unisex bathrooms, so women will have no choice but to have men in proximity in vulnerable situations. So I guess technically there just won't be any female spaces where men can't be, which is even worse.

Saudi Arabia has lots of women only places.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: luthier


Your predator prey story is interesting. However it doesn't fit the mo.

Rapists usually know the person and lure them into the situation.

Those aren't the ones to be worried about. The ones to be worried about are the about 12% of sexual predators (strictly speaking violent sexual predators/rapists with that number, the incidences of predators that will do less invasive things are higher) that are "trollers"; opportunists who troll areas waiting for a vulnerable person in a vulnerable situation. Not all sexual predators know their victims, and most of the more petty and well, we'll call them small assaults (peeking, filming, grabbing, or exposing themselves) are usually fly by and not someone that the victim knows. It's the latter category, the smaller ills that are more likely.

The ones you know are not to be worried about? So don't worry about 88 percent of rapists just worry about the trollers.

I think a violent sexual assault in a bathroom is unlikely but not impossible. However, a troller looking for an opportunity for voyeurism or any number of "lesser" assaults is quite likely. In the context of allowing men access to women's spaces, specifically, this one thing, right here that we are talking about, trollers are going to have a proverbial field day.

Thats a great theory now prove it.

So what stops the janitor from putting an SD camera in your bathroom?

Nothing and that does happen. In fact, many sexual predators seek occupations where they have access. So why make it worse?