Autogynephilia: The Elephant in the Transgender Bathroom

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

So, no statistics to prove your assertion that these non-discrimination laws will lead to more sexual offenses/assaults in women's public restrooms?

Didn't think so.

You're only the winner, by omission of time, which is required to gather statistics on any given subject, before one can come to an educated decision. I would have to fast forward time itself for something that ust happened now.

what, are you a child or something?

a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

Statistics can't be gathered over a 10-year period? Says who?

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician

Your attempts at upsetting me have failed. I am not upset in the least. .

I'm not trying to upset you. I'm trying to get you to think rationally.

The right-wing media you listen to and parrot these talking points from is what has upset you and what was intended to do so.

I, on the other, hand, I'm trying to set you free from these baseless fears.

You're not my Savior and I never asked for your help. That's the problem with ignorant people like you. You think you know it all, and then try to teach others, as they just laugh silently at you. Get over yourself.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

Statistics can't be gathered over a 10-year period? Says who?

If this TG bathroom issue has been going on for 10 years...then why is the world only discussing it now. Are we. as American's (as well as the rest of the world) that slow?

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician

Your attempts at upsetting me have failed. I am not upset in the least. .

I'm not trying to upset you. I'm trying to get you to think rationally.

The right-wing media you listen to and parrot these talking points from is what has upset you and what was intended to do so.

I, on the other, hand, I'm trying to set you free from these baseless fears.

You're not my Savior and I never asked for your help. That's the problem with ignorant people like you. You think you know it all, and then try to teach others, as they just laugh silently at you. Get over yourself.

Ummm ... okay.

So ... feel free to ignore me.

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

Statistics can't be gathered over a 10-year period? Says who?

If this TG bathroom issue has been going on for 10 years...then why is the world only discussing it now. Are we. as American's (as well as the rest of the world) that slow?

Uh it's an election year duh?

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician

Your attempts at upsetting me have failed. I am not upset in the least. .

I'm not trying to upset you. I'm trying to get you to think rationally.

The right-wing media you listen to and parrot these talking points from is what has upset you and what was intended to do so.

I, on the other, hand, I'm trying to set you free from these baseless fears.

You're not my Savior and I never asked for your help. That's the problem with ignorant people like you. You think you know it all, and then try to teach others, as they just laugh silently at you. Get over yourself.

Ummm ... okay.

So ... feel free to ignore me.

Why? I think we have a good rapport going on here.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

Statistics can't be gathered over a 10-year period? Says who?

Yeah, Kayla ... you know if I don't know something about something well then it MUST NOT have existed prior to my awareness.

Pffft. Ten years of statistics. Silly sheeple lady.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

Statistics can't be gathered over a 10-year period? Says who?

Yeah, Kayla ... you know if I don't know something about something well then it MUST NOT have existed prior to my awareness.

Pffft. Ten years of statistics. Silly sheeple lady.

Really?? You are going to "team up" with the only other person on these posts that disagrees with me? If you go back and re-read my very first post on this topic, both of you have just made me look prophetic. This is "exactly", what I said would happen if the Politically Correct people started coming out of the wood work. It was expected however, so carry on with your lynch party, and let's get this shindig started.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

Statistics can't be gathered over a 10-year period? Says who?

Yeah, Kayla ... you know if I don't know something about something well then it MUST NOT have existed prior to my awareness.

Pffft. Ten years of statistics. Silly sheeple lady.

Since the gay marriage battle was lost things are getting weird.

Funny how everyone is all about the constitution when it protects their POV but when it doesn't they act like it's irrelevant to democracy.

This is the same as people wanting there president to do all their bidding. Being so naive as to forget the next guy who you don't like can do the same thing.

The system is flawed but it's as good as we got. This is personal liberty issue. People are clouding it with criminal behaviour. Like hey we shouldn't have cars because blind people might drive.

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

Statistics can't be gathered over a 10-year period? Says who?

If this TG bathroom issue has been going on for 10 years...then why is the world only discussing it now. Are we. as American's (as well as the rest of the world) that slow?

Oh dear, you really have no idea? Some of the more liberal states/cities have passed these non-discrimination laws already and it's been no big deal. It's only when some of the larger cities in the southern "red" states tried to pass the same laws - that the conservative groups in these states went ballistic. The conservative right lost a big one when marriage equality became the law of the land, and they see this non-discrimination law as one more chink out of their armor of control.
THAT'S what this is all about.

originally posted by: AceWombat04
...and even if I were to extrapolate from the embracing of said hypothesis that there are thus significant (though I'm of the belief that we'd still be talking about a minority of a minority of a minority) groups of trans individuals with this postulated paraphilia "sharing bathrooms and locker rooms" with others...

I tend to agree more than I disagree; but I was surprised while trying to find numbers for autogynephiles that it might be far more than we imagine or can account for, based on those who practice their crossdressing privately and/or part-time. Even among those who identify as transgender, even ballpark numbers are difficult to come by.

... my questions are the same as they always are when it comes to these "trans people sharing spaces with cis people might be dangerous" arguments: what is it about the present equal rights movement and/or rulings with respect thereto that causes or increases the risk of harm to others?

For me, the increased risk of harm is the increased number of known (and unknown) sexual predators, both trans and non-trans, pretty much in disguise, being forced into secluded private spaces of women and children, the most vulnerable members of society with virtually no chance of any good guys coming along to provide either a deterrent or a rescue (as there would be in a gender-neutral or family bathroom for example.)

And, as noted in my OP, a constitutional right to privacy -- and private spaces -- according to sex at birth was affirmed by no less than Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg back in the 70s. So while everyone has a right to access to bathrooms and other spaces, the right to sex-at-birth-designated spaces has been designated a right (for good reason) and should rightfully be respected as such.

Why would it automatically follow that harm would result or be likely to result, any more than is already the case? What is being proposed or changed or made different that would constitute harm not previously already present or possible under the existing status quo?

Opportunity. Greater access and fewer restrictions creates increased opportunity.

And why is this more of a presumed threat than, say, cisgender individuals with hypersexuality disorder?

It's not. As noted in the OP, according to the data I found, all men commit crime at the same rates... actually, I believe technically they were convicted of criminal behavior at the same rates; all crimes, not just sex crimes. So I am assuming the numbers would transfer accordingly? But I guess I don't know that.

What is it about this hypothesized condition happening to sometimes coincide with being in transition, that makes it somehow allegedly more likely to prompt illicit or harmful behavior against others?

Actually, perhaps ironically, the process of transitioning seems to alleviate symptoms -- including the more worrisome behavior associated with some/many. Some of these transsexuals report becoming asexual after transition. It seems that the hormone therapy is the source, perhaps the testosterone blockers more effective than the female hormones, as the decreased testosterone levels decrease the libido, and therefore the arousal factor.

The worrisome ones are those who do not transition, those who remain transgender and/or transvestite and the condition progresses -- including any associated violent and predatory issues -- to a point that person is a threat to the public. One of the problems I have sorting this all out is that all of the above fall into the transgender box, but are very different critters.

Just MHO, feel free to disagree, I'm not here to argue about it, nor to change anyone's mind.

Peace.

Thanks for asking some great questions and bringing up some great distinctions. I appreciate it!

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

Statistics can't be gathered over a 10-year period? Says who?

Yeah, Kayla ... you know if I don't know something about something well then it MUST NOT have existed prior to my awareness.

Pffft. Ten years of statistics. Silly sheeple lady.

Really?? You are going to "team up" with the only other person on these posts that disagrees with me? If you go back and re-read my very first post on this topic, both of you have just made me look prophetic. This is "exactly", what I said would happen if the Politically Correct people started coming out of the wood work. It was expected however, so carry on with your lynch party, and let's get this shindig started.

Just like the prophecy the religious right will be agreeing with the OP.

a reply to: luthier

Exactly. Obergefell was like acid in their eyes.

Yes, sadly, I've noted that the Constitution is only invoked (usually errantly) when a pet project seems threatened.

Really funny is to see a poster invoke the 14th Amendment in one thread and then call for it's repeal in another (or claim that it was never ratified.)

My philosophy is simple: live and let live, and if you don't start nuthin', won't be nuthin.

Our system, and keep in mind I am an old leftist who hates (actualy) government overreach (like the law in NC) like sin, is simply the best balance between individual freedom and national cooperation that is possible.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

Statistics can't be gathered over a 10-year period? Says who?

If this TG bathroom issue has been going on for 10 years...then why is the world only discussing it now. Are we. as American's (as well as the rest of the world) that slow?

Oh dear, you really have no idea? Some of the more liberal states/cities have passed these non-discrimination laws already and it's been no big deal. It's only when some of the larger cities in the southern "red" states tried to pass the same laws - that the conservative groups in these states went ballistic. The conservative right lost a big one when marriage equality became the law of the land, and they see this non-discrimination law as one more chink out of their armor of control.
THAT'S what this is all about.

Non-Discrimination has everything with how people viewed as 'opposites' are treated on a moral or ethical level, but nothing to do with what bathroom they use (or we would all have a complaint). Minorities include Black People, Gays, and many other groups...not just TG people.
Just because it's right to treat others with respect, doesn't mean we should irritate the whole world trying to placate TG's alone, with privilege... at the behest of the greater public, esp. when they are the minorities of minorities. The people 'AS A WHOLE' must be placated before 0.003% of the population....or bad things happen. Simple as that. AS for when it all started...negligible really, as we are talking about it now...and so is everyone else.

a reply to: Boadicea

I tend to agree more than I disagree; but I was surprised while trying to find numbers for autogynephiles that it might be far more than we imagine or can account for, based on those who practice their crossdressing privately and/or part-time. Even among those who identify as transgender, even ballpark numbers are difficult to come by.

See now you agreed. That there are some transvestites who have that fetish have been known for years. You acted like a little child who have discovered something new. Bringing in some fancy word for it change nothing. I agree with some of the posters here... you've done a great disservice to the trans community. You've done a lot of damage.

a reply to: Gryphon66

What is "this...

"This" is autogynephilia.

"...and other conditions associated with violence and sex offenses"?"

"Other conditions" are conditions other than autogynephilia that are associated with violence and sex offenses.

I could have sworn you just clarified that you weren't claiming that all AGPs are violent ... didn't you?

Yes, I did.

originally posted by: Boadicea

And, as noted in my OP, a constitutional right to privacy -- and private spaces -- according to sex at birth was affirmed by no less than Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg back in the 70s. So while everyone has a right to access to bathrooms and other spaces, the right to sex-at-birth-designated spaces has been designated a right (for good reason) and should rightfully be respected as such.

Not to be nitpicky, but Ginsburg wasn't a Supreme Court Justice in the 70s. Back then, she was just a law professor. And she wasn't talking about transgenders at all - as transgenders were pretty much kept in the closet back then, along with everyone else in the LGBT community. What do you want to bet she has something updated to say about the subject of public restrooms now?

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: AceWombat04
...and even if I were to extrapolate from the embracing of said hypothesis that there are thus significant (though I'm of the belief that we'd still be talking about a minority of a minority of a minority) groups of trans individuals with this postulated paraphilia "sharing bathrooms and locker rooms" with others...

I tend to agree more than I disagree; but I was surprised while trying to find numbers for autogynephiles that it might be far more than we imagine or can account for, based on those who practice their crossdressing privately and/or part-time. Even among those who identify as transgender, even ballpark numbers are difficult to come by.

... my questions are the same as they always are when it comes to these "trans people sharing spaces with cis people might be dangerous" arguments: what is it about the present equal rights movement and/or rulings with respect thereto that causes or increases the risk of harm to others?

For me, the increased risk of harm is the increased number of known (and unknown) sexual predators, both trans and non-trans, pretty much in disguise, being forced into secluded private spaces of women and children, the most vulnerable members of society with virtually no chance of any good guys coming along to provide either a deterrent or a rescue (as there would be in a gender-neutral or family bathroom for example.)

And, as noted in my OP, a constitutional right to privacy -- and private spaces -- according to sex at birth was affirmed by no less than Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg back in the 70s. So while everyone has a right to access to bathrooms and other spaces, the right to sex-at-birth-designated spaces has been designated a right (for good reason) and should rightfully be respected as such.

Why would it automatically follow that harm would result or be likely to result, any more than is already the case? What is being proposed or changed or made different that would constitute harm not previously already present or possible under the existing status quo?

Opportunity. Greater access and fewer restrictions creates increased opportunity.

And why is this more of a presumed threat than, say, cisgender individuals with hypersexuality disorder?

It's not. As noted in the OP, according to the data I found, all men commit crime at the same rates... actually, I believe technically they were convicted of criminal behavior at the same rates; all crimes, not just sex crimes. So I am assuming the numbers would transfer accordingly? But I guess I don't know that.

What is it about this hypothesized condition happening to sometimes coincide with being in transition, that makes it somehow allegedly more likely to prompt illicit or harmful behavior against others?

Actually, perhaps ironically, the process of transitioning seems to alleviate symptoms -- including the more worrisome behavior associated with some/many. Some of these transsexuals report becoming asexual after transition. It seems that the hormone therapy is the source, perhaps the testosterone blockers more effective than the female hormones, as the decreased testosterone levels decrease the libido, and therefore the arousal factor.

The worrisome ones are those who do not transition, those who remain transgender and/or transvestite and the condition progresses -- including any associated violent and predatory issues -- to a point that person is a threat to the public. One of the problems I have sorting this all out is that all of the above fall into the transgender box, but are very different critters.

Just MHO, feel free to disagree, I'm not here to argue about it, nor to change anyone's mind.

Peace.

Thanks for asking some great questions and bringing up some great distinctions. I appreciate it!

I keep hoping you have an epiphany here and realize the logical errors.

First title 9 court decisions in federal court. Obviously the supreme Court decision is being tested and overruled by...title 9. That was the 70's same period when spousal rape was legal. Things have changed. (See interpretation of title 9 and lawsuits)

Another huge issue. There is no need to sort out the difference. This is like saying hey we need to figure out who all the sociopaths are before we allow you a college roomate. Hey 1 in four right so we should start making laws about sociopaths immediately.

Your worried about non transitioning trans people yet you have no actual data on them being dangerous. You say they are, then no they aren't, now again they are.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

Statistics can't be gathered over a 10-year period? Says who?

Yeah, Kayla ... you know if I don't know something about something well then it MUST NOT have existed prior to my awareness.

Pffft. Ten years of statistics. Silly sheeple lady.

Really?? You are going to "team up" with the only other person on these posts that disagrees with me? If you go back and re-read my very first post on this topic, both of you have just made me look prophetic. This is "exactly", what I said would happen if the Politically Correct people started coming out of the wood work. It was expected however, so carry on with your lynch party, and let's get this shindig started.

Just like the prophecy the religious right will be agreeing with the OP.

That's common sense, and can be derived by logic alone. My prediction had to be "actioned" by the PC idiots, that physically "actioned".....what I said would happen.