The oxford bell

The Oxford bell has been ringing for one hundred and seventy five years, it looks like its powered by a couple of batteries called a "Zamboni pile" now days you can see it working but cant hear it because its under glass to control the humidity. Under the current laws of physics, it should have stopped years ago, but it seems to contain a controversy, that apparently because its still going, seems unresolved. I think its Newton's second law of thermodynamics, which basically says you cant have something for nothing.
Apparently during the time this thing was made, their was heated debate between the Chemists, and Physicists who said the voltaic pile principle was caused by a Redox reaction where one of the metals in the pile would eat itself up, due to the action of the electrolyte , and another side of the debate saying that their was a natural affinity for the electrons, or electrical fluid as it was known in those days, to naturally flow from a more noble metal into a lesser one, thus making an electrical circuit . The argument was between, the "Chemical and the Contact theory"
Volta the inventor of the pile battery, claimed that it was a contact principle , and if the coin sized pieces of zinc and copper were separated by a saline soaked cloth , and stacked up, a flow of electricity would keep going indefinitely as long as the cloth was moistened. Zamboni 's pile is different as it has no electrolyte, but the electron flow is similar to Voltas.
So what's going on here, has an interesting mistake been made, where the mechanically produced power stations using vast amounts of fossil fuels, could have been avoided?
During some research, and some experiments, that seem to suggest under certain circumstances the contact theory is correct. Forget about heavy pieces of zinc and copper in the old eighteen century piles, All that's needed is inch square pieces of copper and aluminium arranged in a pile with an appropriate electrolyte, either in series or in parallel which are two thousands of an inch thick respectively, with hardly any gap and the merest doping of electrolyte. Its shoving out about a milliamp, enough to run a calculator, or a watch. Mine has been going for a week, so far.
I did a google search and came across experimenters who were getting the same results, one had rigged a pile up to an LED that kept flashing for eighteen months so far, and didn't look like it was stopping. So any thoughts on what's going on??

a reply to: anonentitycan you link the experiments you came across?

Most curious. Also, thanks for putting it (the way the battery functions) into understandable terms for us average folk! As I'm sure there Are many complicated ways to describe such a device.
You'd make a good teacher

Anyways, the implications here I assume could be huge. It sounds like a simple enough power supply to create, so I'd think you could scale it indefinitely, as well as work on efficiency. (more output per square inch and and the like)

Funny how often times I'm more astounded by what we did then, than what we do now!

A recent discovery found that the manganese in zinc magnesium batteries was being chemically altered as explained here which should result in new zinc magnesium batteries that will be far cheaper than lithium batteries in powering electric vehicles.

a reply to: ChesterJohn


Yes it was a post in 2012 by "Old Codger" in the Physics forum, he was trying to get more information, the thread was Voltaic piles.

a reply to: glend
It might be worth adding, that on inspection of the cell he found their was no appreciable degradation of either metals, in the pile after a few weeks, which is what I have observed in the copper aluminium couple, although granted ,which is after a few days of production. Their is an initial burst of high amperage, like 30% more than its steady output, when its first connected to a multimeter, then after a couple of hours it steadies and keeps going.

I'll have to read more but remember running power through DC and AC have differing effects vis a vis Ohm's Law.

You would have to be mindful of voltage drop if running something in series, R1+R2 and all that.

Having current natural occur from contact between zinc/copper isn't surprising at all either. Two separate metals will naturally corrode and that chemical reaction will produce some form of energy, as one stated above....likely power a calculator.

Conversely, there are thermo-couples (sic) where heat produces an electrical current. So depending on what approach they use will be dependent on the outcome. All that being said, the technology wouldn't neccisarily be useful on a grand scale.

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: glend
It might be worth adding, that on inspection of the cell he found their was no appreciable degradation of either metals, in the pile after a few weeks, which is what I have observed in the copper aluminium couple, although granted ,which is after a few days of production. Their is an initial burst of high amperage, like 30% more than its steady output, when its first connected to a multimeter, then after a couple of hours it steadies and keeps going.

Until there's is a degradation from separate mteals in contact with one another.

a reply to: anonentity

There is no such thing of "Newton's second law of thermodynamics". There are "Newton's three laws of motion" and "The second law of thermodynamics".

Don"t feel bad, I made the same mistake and was also burned here on ATS.

a reply to: Rosinitiate



Scale is the operative word, voltage in this type of thing, can get interesting, but i'll run some numbers on output with regards to the volume of metal required. Bearing in mind the thickness of the foil I am using is .002 of an inch for the copper and aluminium respectively, but theoretically it could be microns thin as its a surface effect.

I've read on this before. It's very interesting.
Another one that's neat is the Beverly Clock.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: graysquirrel


Thanks for the correction, I always get it wrong.

a reply to: In4ormant


That's a clever piece of work. The standard of workmanship must have been exceptional. But I suppose he could have used Mercury, which would have worked of off daily temperature fluctuations. But the batteries running the Oxford bell, do present a different problem, as they don't have a fluid electrolyte, so its a dry pile. It may indeed not be perpetual motion but 175 years is pretty good by the standards of those days, and tends to suggest a contact solution.
I came across another battery called a Crystal battery, which is basically a copper pipe, with a magnesium core, surrounded by a baked electrolyte of sulphur and other various stuff. The guy says it seems to produce a high output at first and then drops back to a steady output, again another example of a dry pile in this type of arrangement. I wonder if their is some type of memory effect going down, where the electrons just keep going down a quantum tunnel because they can.

originally posted by: anonentity
So any thoughts on what's going on??

Nobody is sure of the exact composition of the piles running the oxford bell but as you said they are thought to be zamboni piles which are long lasting "electrostatic batteries". If you make the pile big enough, you can get a lot of voltage, but very little current. It turns out that not much current would be required to move this little ringer. For starters, note that it hardly has to move to ring the bells and it only rings at about 2Hz:

www.physics.ox.ac.uk...

The internal construction of the piles themselves remains a matter for conjecture, but records of similar popular curiosities of the period e.g. Zamboni piles, indicate that they are probably of alternate layers of metal foil and paper coated with manganese dioxide.

Some published reports of the Pile unfortunately refer to it as an example of perpetual motion but the Guinness Book of Records has it under the "worlds most durable battery" delivering "ceaseless tintinnabulation".

The space between the ringer and the bells is so small it's hard to even see, so the amount of movement is miniscule, and doesn't take much from the battery to move that tiny amount. So of course if very little is demanded from a battery, it can last a very long time.

a reply to: anonentity

second law of thermodynamics

As I understand it the second law of thermodynamics has a false bit inserted, paid for by the bankers.

While working at Berkeley Nuclear Laboratories Ross Hesketh proved the error and sent copies of his paper to every university in the land. He was dispirited when he didn't receive a single reply. I expect the papers were stolen by security services shortly after he posted them. He was too innocent to realise the need for secrecy and personal delivery. When he exposed Atoms For Peace as a fraud he was surprised that it led to him fleeing the country. The murders of his associates Hilda Murrell and Willie McRae could easily have been followed by his own murder. Fortunately he had friends who protected him from state assassins.

Physics isn't wrong but the laws of physics may contain errors.

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: In4ormant


That's a clever piece of work. The standard of workmanship must have been exceptional. But I suppose he could have used Mercury, which would have worked of off daily temperature fluctuations. But the batteries running the Oxford bell, do present a different problem, as they don't have a fluid electrolyte, so its a dry pile. It may indeed not be perpetual motion but 175 years is pretty good by the standards of those days, and tends to suggest a contact solution.
I came across another battery called a Crystal battery, which is basically a copper pipe, with a magnesium core, surrounded by a baked electrolyte of sulphur and other various stuff. The guy says it seems to produce a high output at first and then drops back to a steady output, again another example of a dry pile in this type of arrangement. I wonder if their is some type of memory effect going down, where the electrons just keep going down a quantum tunnel because they can.

Not sure how it works either. The "dry" pile could in effect keep eroding elements separate without degrading the electron flow whereas an aqueous solution might become muddied.

originally posted by: Kester
a reply to: anonentity

second law of thermodynamics

As I understand it the second law of thermodynamics has a false bit inserted, paid for by the bankers.

While working at Berkeley Nuclear Laboratories Ross Hesketh proved the error and sent copies of his paper to every university in the land. He was dispirited when he didn't receive a single reply. I expect the papers were stolen by security services shortly after he posted them. He was too innocent to realise the need for secrecy and personal delivery. When he exposed Atoms For Peace as a fraud he was surprised that it led to him fleeing the country. The murders of his associates Hilda Murrell and Willie McRae could easily have been followed by his own murder. Fortunately he had friends who protected him from state assassins.

Physics isn't wrong but the laws of physics may contain errors.

Russ was known for exposing illegal nuclear transfers from the UK to U.S.
www.codnor.info...

What story are you talking about? It sounds interesting.

a reply to: anonentity

Redox flow batteries are all the rage now.

ATS - linky. Has The Great Flow Battery Battle Started?

originally posted by: Kester

As I understand it the second law of thermodynamics has a false bit inserted, paid for by the bankers.

LOL! You can't pay off the laws of physics.

BRB, cancelling my subscription to gravity...

originally posted by: GetHyped

originally posted by: Kester

As I understand it the second law of thermodynamics has a false bit inserted, paid for by the bankers.

LOL! You can't pay off the laws of physics.

BRB, cancelling my subscription to gravity...

That was pretty clever