BREXIT: the full movie. Why England MUST vote to leave the EU.

a reply to: SprocketUK

You really don't see why it's so different? Ok, each to their own. I'm half Irish, brought up a Catholic at a young age at least and think what the IRA and their opposing factions did were nothing more than terrorism from people who to the public stated their fight was political, while at the same time using extortion, prostitution, blackmail and murder for their own profit. It happens? Yes it does. Lots of things happen. You seem then happy to let them happen so good luck to you in your reality. It's feck all similar to the American revolution which most historians agree would have been avoided (at least for some time) if more consideration had been given to representation. To try and compare the situation - particularly where America were victorious via an alliance with France!!!!! is laughable. Next thing that will happen is you will paint your face blue and cry FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in a really unconvincing Australian accent while ignoring historical facts.

Why you had a tab open about a council election in Hilltop is your business (unless you are effectively a neighbour to me), but if ballot boxes are 'missing' then I want a little more than that to go on before saying they have been fixed. I can't really remember much more than delays while boxes were delivered, are you suggesting they had been forced open and tampered with, and what about the rigged postal votes you mentioned previously?

You say we have never successfully opposed a measure? If we were part of winning on 86.7% of votes, are you saying our vote (and it is 12-13%) didn't push the tipping point to win it?

originally posted by: Shuye
Because you cannot prove an election is rigged doesn't mean that it's not.

But that position is an "argument from ignorance", which is (frankly) the bolt-hole of the intellectually strangled.

However, if that the best you can do then I will stick with the proposition that UK elections are not rigged, precisely because there is no evidence to the contrary.

a reply to: uncommitted

I had the tab open because, believe it or not, a search for missing ballot boxes doesn't just turn up one instance. It's a more common thing than we would like to think.

Re America, why bring Aussies into it? And yes, it could have been forestalled if those in power listened to those they sought to govern...but they didn't, did they? Hence my use of the revolution as a comparison.

Fair enough though, I can see you are doing the blinkers thing with regard to Thanet. There was even a thread here I think about the Police launching an investigation. ..but if you never heard....

I wasn't for a moment trying to make out the IRA were saints, nor any of the others, but I really don't think that those who were classed as their supporters were all bad either. Just people choosing between really poor options with no other way forward.

It's all very well to say we were on the winning side in ministers votes, but the point remains that we can't vote for or against them yet they can enforce laws upon us and have done 72 times when our elected representatives wished them not to. How is that remotely democratic?

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: Shuye
Because you cannot prove an election is rigged doesn't mean that it's not.

But that position is an "argument from ignorance", which is (frankly) the bolt-hole of the intellectually strangled.

However, if that the best you can do then I will stick with the proposition that UK elections are not rigged, precisely because there is no evidence to the contrary.

Was the video I attached not a good enough evidence? Or just because it's the UK it may be different.

It's the same system everywhere my friend.

a reply to: uncommitted

Wait, Mel Gibson. I get it.
Bit harsh comparing me to a man known for drunken, anti semitic rants.
You'll be accusing me of being on the Labour NEC next

a reply to: SprocketUK

But the Hilltop boxes weren't missing, they were late arriving and in no way actually made any difference to the vote - in fact they increased the size of the winning number for that particular councillor. I live locally, I know what traffic is like - do you? I've not got blinkers on to anything. Why do you keep persisting in assuming because I challenge you then I'm in some way wrong? You think the police launched an investigation? Did they or didn't they, you tell me or are you blinkered to think they did when you aren't sure?

When did I bring Australians into anything? Are you responding to a different thread perhaps or are you having a Boris moment?

Within the UK a government can bring forward a proposed law or amendment to a law and have the opposing party/parties strike it out even if the government of the day (of whatever political type) held a majority - is that democratic? If it's what the government with the majority and therefore the most elected representatives wanted then using your logic the answer is no, I would disagree and that's what checks and balances are all about unless you want something akin to American politics where any proposal is automatically shot down just to prove a point.

Just stop it with justifying the IRA killing innocent people, it really doesn't do you any favours.

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: uncommitted

Wait, Mel Gibson. I get it.
Bit harsh comparing me to a man known for drunken, anti semitic rants.
You'll be accusing me of being on the Labour NEC next

How do I know you aren't?

a reply to: uncommitted

I left Labour when my Union did :-) They wouldn't want me back.

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: uncommitted

I left Labour when my Union did :-) They wouldn't want me back.

Well, it's been interesting debating with you. You haven't actually given a compelling reason to leave so once again I walk away from this thinking that there is no resounding argument once emotion and opinion is removed. Have fun but I really wouldn't shout about your admiration for terrorist groups too much.

a reply to: Freeborn

So right now on BBC2 - 17:55 on Monday 23rd May there is a broadcast from the Leave campaign again saying the UK pays £350 million a week to the EU and gets no money back. We don't pay that amount, never have, it's wrong from the start and doesn't take into account the rebate (put in place by Thatcher let's not forget whether people like it or not), the subsidies it then funds for industries such as farming or into areas of low economic growth, or the direct trade access to the EU without having to negotiate separate terms or (like Norway) abide with all of the EU regs but with zero seat at the actual table.

I'm just stating black and white facts that the leave campaign simply trample on to make an appeal to emotion.

Can we hear Mama Cass sing something honest? I don't care which side it's from but I'd just like honesty.

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
I have mixed feelings about all of this, with the referendum looming as it is.

I'm a disabled UK citizen, and as such I honestly fear what the Tories will do to this nation if the European Convention on Human Rights is abandoned, to be replaced by a British Bill of Rights. I sincerely hope that there are powerful people fighting our corner in the unseen spheres - I don't believe a non-EU version of the UK will be a better place to live. Especially with the Tories at the helm.

www.youtube.com...

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: uncommitted

I left Labour when my Union did :-) They wouldn't want me back.

Well, it's been interesting debating with you. You haven't actually given a compelling reason to leave so once again I walk away from this thinking that there is no resounding argument once emotion and opinion is removed. Have fun but I really wouldn't shout about your admiration for terrorist groups too much.

I tried, but democratic accountability seems low on your priorities.

originally posted by: sapien82
I think this is a #ing joke , every single person who wanted us to stay in the United kingdom is now screaming to leave the EU

I just feel that if the united kingdom leaves the EU then , Scotland and Wales will be leaving the United kingdom should another referendum happen

And London. According to a poll in 2014, 20% of all Londoners would vote for London to leave the UK and become an independent nation. After a possible Brexit, I feel that there might be a majority in favour of this.

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: uncommitted

That BBC piece, the answer they give is that the UK has an ability to affect the legislation through our MEP's

Which is a bit shady, don't you think? Since we have, what, 8% or so of MEP's in the parliament?

We have 9.72%. Unfortunately, since the Conservatives decided to leave the EPP, the largest party grouping in the EU Parliament, we are no longer affiliated with a majority. That is not the fault of the EU; it is entirely self-inflicted.

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: uncommitted

I left Labour when my Union did :-) They wouldn't want me back.

Well, it's been interesting debating with you. You haven't actually given a compelling reason to leave so once again I walk away from this thinking that there is no resounding argument once emotion and opinion is removed. Have fun but I really wouldn't shout about your admiration for terrorist groups too much.

I tried, but democratic accountability seems low on your priorities.

What, you mean bombing or shooting people if you don't get what you want? If that's the case, thank you.

I've debated with a few people on this issue and they seem not to care much about sovereign democracy.
They claim the EU is great because it did great things for the country etc.
What they don't realise is that we actually pay for the stuff they do for us and more.
I got the impression that we were sucking at the teat of the EU.

The EU sucks up countries and rips out the sovereign democratic core.

Someone should do a post explaining how and why the EU is undemocratic.

I teared up when I saw what it had done to my country.

Limbo

originally posted by: moniker

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: uncommitted

That BBC piece, the answer they give is that the UK has an ability to affect the legislation through our MEP's

Which is a bit shady, don't you think? Since we have, what, 8% or so of MEP's in the parliament?

We have 9.72%. Unfortunately, since the Conservatives decided to leave the EPP, the largest party grouping in the EU Parliament, we are no longer affiliated with a majority. That is not the fault of the EU; it is entirely self-inflicted.

Amounts to the same thing though, doesn't it? You'd think we'd be getting more democracy after the cold war, not less.

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: uncommitted

I left Labour when my Union did :-) They wouldn't want me back.

Well, it's been interesting debating with you. You haven't actually given a compelling reason to leave so once again I walk away from this thinking that there is no resounding argument once emotion and opinion is removed. Have fun but I really wouldn't shout about your admiration for terrorist groups too much.

I tried, but democratic accountability seems low on your priorities.

What, you mean bombing or shooting people if you don't get what you want? If that's the case, thank you.

Maybe it was a bit strong, in retrospect, but it got attention. And for the record, I didn't say killing and maiming folks was a good thing. Try and hold onto that, eh?

I really do think that the way the government is skewing the lead up to this referendum means there is a real chance of people being so angry they will do things like this, and, if I genuinely do think we have been conned, then I'd find it very difficult to condemn them. After all, no one ever got given their freedom by a benevolent dictator did they? It always took struggle or some outside influence to force the change.

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: uncommitted

I left Labour when my Union did :-) They wouldn't want me back.

Well, it's been interesting debating with you. You haven't actually given a compelling reason to leave so once again I walk away from this thinking that there is no resounding argument once emotion and opinion is removed. Have fun but I really wouldn't shout about your admiration for terrorist groups too much.

I tried, but democratic accountability seems low on your priorities.

What, you mean bombing or shooting people if you don't get what you want? If that's the case, thank you.

Maybe it was a bit strong, in retrospect, but it got attention. And for the record, I didn't say killing and maiming folks was a good thing. Try and hold onto that, eh?

As the late great Mr Bowie once sang 'Dignity is valuable, but our lives are valuable too'.

Get your coins ready if you don't get what you want. I'd rather work with something I wasn't expecting than kill people. And yes, by suggesting funding a terrorist group that's exactly what you said.

The Leave campaign is skewing at least as much - exactly how soon will Turkey get to join and will there really be no veto? Pardon my cynicism, just off for a banana off a bunch that has more than three on it.

Come back with facts, then I'll listen.

originally posted by: Shuye
Was the video I attached not a good enough evidence?

Yeah, must be true because I saw it on YouTube! And, yes, the UK is different from the US.

Back to the OP. It's an interesting historical legacy that Commonwealth citizens and those from the Republic of Ireland living in the UK can vote the EU Referendum, as well as other elections...

be registered to vote
be 18 or over on the day of the referendum (‘polling day’)
be a British, Irish or Commonwealth citizen
be resident at an address in the UK or Gibraltar (or a British citizen living abroad who has been registered to vote in the UK in the last 15 years)
not be legally excluded from voting

Source Gov UK