BREXIT: the full movie. Why England MUST vote to leave the EU.

a reply to: SprocketUK


I called you a twat for you suggesting you would pay money to a terrorist group - and you say I'm a keyboard warrior? You fairly much ticked all the required boxes to be treated as one. If you seriously suggest that our membership of the EU is equivalent to the Irish issues, and that killing people is a logical answer, then my comment stands. Advocating killing innocent people doesn't make you a big boy or girl while sitting in the UK behind your keyboard, it makes you an idiot - a very immature one at that.

Now, if you are going to stop using such ridiculous statements. I don't agree with your comment about the UK losing its veto, I was talking about the UK having to incorporate specific laws/regulations from the EU - we haven't lost the last 72 of those.

Why do you think I am so keen on a remain vote? I made it clear in my post as I have in others that I have not seen a clear, black and white compelling argument to leave. Your last paragraph kind of shows that when all else fails then insult people with a different opinion to your own. This is starting to make the threads on the Scottish referendum look balanced and mature which is quite a feat.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

I agree with you , if we leave we will still have the tories in power #ing us hard in the ass , if we remain in the EU at least we stand the chance of a reach around

originally posted by: Morrad

The last time I can remember seeing such opinionated bollox

You are dismissing opposing opinions as 'bollox' without offering anything real to support your claim. Please do tell, without using speculation or sophistry, how the EU system of governance is democratic and beneficial. I have been searching for several months and I cannot find anything to support this.

Opinionated bollox referred to people suggesting they would pay money to a terrorist group equivalent to the IRA in the event that the vote was a win for remain rather than leave. Unlike some I'm not here to tell anyone to vote one way or another.

a reply to: elysiumfire

Don't get me wrong, democracy has to be seen to be enacted, to be seen as if it matters, because obviously, some people can't accept that it is nothing more than a charade. So, June 23rd, Britain will go to the voting booths and play the ritual of democracy. That is all they will be allowed to do, to play out the ritual, and walk away thinking democracy is alive and well in Britain.

You may find this interesting.

Dr Lars Mosesson, Buckinghamshire New University says the government does not have to implement a Brexit vote.

The European Union Referendum Act 2015 only provides for holding a referendum on the UK's membership of the EU: it does not provide that the government is legally obliged to take action on whatever the public decides

Bucks New University academic says result of EU referendum is not legally binding

originally posted by: Morrad
Dr Lars Mosesson, Buckinghamshire New University says the government does not have to implement a Brexit vote.

But the outcome of the referendum will be implemented. It will be political suicide not to. No government would want to go against such a clear message from the electorate.

This whole debate has been quite interesting to hear, but cutting down to the pure politics of it all and to implement the outcome, will also be quite interesting.

a reply to: uncommitted

The point I initially tried to make was that so far we have seen the government spend an extra 9 million supporting remain, then every government department has been tasked with producing reports emphasising the possible downsides of leaving while downplaying if not outright ignoring the downsides of staying.
The bbc was found to have illegally taken ads for remain but not leave, you can't log into a gov.uk site without being faced with the same propaganda.

That's already a fix, but to go further, in just one constituency in the GE serious allegations were made and so far not been satisfactorily answered about missing ballot boxes and a rigged postal voting system.

If I truly do think that vested interests are denying me my right to self determination then why wouldn't I support a group that sought to right that wrong?

You'll note I mentioned putting money in a tin, rather than actually blowing stuff up. I'm quite well rounded really, but I can sure see how this will all go down in a few years and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see the formation of such a group, would you? Really?

a reply to: SprocketUK

Well, they got what they wanted, didn't they?

Did they?
I don't think there's a 'United Ireland' is there?
Northern Ireland is still firmly British - latest opinion polls suggest that more and more traditional 'Republican' Catholics in Ulster have no desire to see a united Ireland and wish to remain in the UK.

So how exactly have the IRA 'got what they wanted'?

If we are going to be denied democracy then I can't really see an alternative, can you?

First of all it's a bit presumptuous and premature to be conceding defeat, I think its going to be a close call either way.

Yes, the Remain camp have been using every trick in the book to give an unbalanced and biased viewpoint.....but Mama Cass ain't singing yet.

And I am a firm believer in the maxim "Anger can be Power".

But I can not and will not support acts of indiscriminate terror against innocent civilians.
And neither will the vast majority of Brits irrelevant of their views on the EU.

The IRA and their ilk were / are nothing but murdering racketeers and I am absolutely amazed that you could align yourself with them and the sort of tactics they used.

I'm not for a minute suggesting it is my favoured option, but push folks enough and they'll act in the only way left to them.

If any proof is ever shown that there was any sort of manipulation and tampering with the results of the referendum then yes, I'd probably agree with some sort of direct action....but never the sort of acts that you appear to support.

a reply to: Ove38

EU has more gold then US, the point with BREXIT is to reduce EUs gold reserve and weaken EU.

The referendum has nothing to do whatsoever with anything related to the US and everything to do with the British people's desire to express some sort of self-determination over who exactly governs them.

Not everything in this world revolves around the US!

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: uncommitted

The point I initially tried to make was that so far we have seen the government spend an extra 9 million supporting remain, then every government department has been tasked with producing reports emphasising the possible downsides of leaving while downplaying if not outright ignoring the downsides of staying.
The bbc was found to have illegally taken ads for remain but not leave, you can't log into a gov.uk site without being faced with the same propaganda.

That's already a fix, but to go further, in just one constituency in the GE serious allegations were made and so far not been satisfactorily answered about missing ballot boxes and a rigged postal voting system.

If I truly do think that vested interests are denying me my right to self determination then why wouldn't I support a group that sought to right that wrong?

You'll note I mentioned putting money in a tin, rather than actually blowing stuff up. I'm quite well rounded really, but I can sure see how this will all go down in a few years and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see the formation of such a group, would you? Really?

Putting money into a tin that could ultimately go towards financing the things that will blow people up (do you refer to people as 'stuff'?) is not much different than actually planting the thing IMHO. I thought the same about NORAID, although it appears many of the contributors at least had some level of ignorance in their defence. You aren't going to escape that one I'm afraid.

The allegations about missing ballot boxes and rigged postal voting are to the best of my knowledge exactly that - allegations. I'd be interested in hearing about evidence - but not from someone making a claim based on their basis being that they would have won if said ballot boxes were not missing - as I can't take that as unbiased evidence.

For your earlier points about the UK never winning a veto or overturning a directive in the EU, I offer the following link. Yes, you won't like the facts it's from the BBC, but regardless of the source I would challenge you to find evidence that the information provided is wrong.

www.bbc.co.uk...

And further source from the Guardian, whose editorial I dislike intensely, but the stats make sense -

www.theguardian.com...

It's interesting that it feels the need to highlight we were on the losing side of a given vote 12.3% of the time from 2009 - 2015, rather than highlighting further that means we were on the winning vote 86.7% of the time, although that point is made for people who can't count.

Let me make it clear. At this point I have not decided which way to vote and the main reason for that is the Leave camp have yet to give me very good reason to believe they have a better argument. My head is still shaking from Boris's latest claim that the EU prevents us from buying bananas in bunches of more than three - proof in my mind of either desperation or that his heart really isn't in this. My decision will ultimately be based on facts that can be analysed, weighed and considered, not emotional claims made on this site and if people choose to consider anyone who does not have the same opinion as them in some way foolish then I will take a little more time to examine their claims and if I feel inclined challenge them.

a reply to: elysiumfire

The thing is, a conspiracy on the levels that you suggest would involve so many people that evidence of the conspiracy would quickly leak into the public domain.

If that ever happens then there will indeed likely be a public uprising.

I firmly believe that there is some sort of elite who try to control every aspect of British society and they have a vice like grip on all the senior positions within Parliament / Civil Service / Judiciary / Armed Services / Police and even MSM.

But does that level of control enable them to rig something on this sort of level?

I'm not too sure.

I understand that they are trying everything possible to manipulate and condition public opinion, but actual physical vote rigging MAY be a bit of a stretch.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: SprocketUK



Yes, the Remain camp have been using every trick in the book to give an unbalanced and biased viewpoint.....but Mama Cass ain't singing yet.

I agree with everything you posted, but the piece I've extracted above I've got to question if only for balance. Is the Remain camp the only one doing this? Do you really believe everything coming out of the mouths of Boris and co is balanced and unbiased?

Can we really only buy bananas in bunches of threes?

Does the fact that 'Birmingham Balti' may not be classed as protected in the same way as a Melton Mowbray pork pie mean that Priti Patel needs to 'fight to defend our curry houses'?

Is Turkey really imminently going to become a member state and do other EU countries not really have a veto even though the fact they do is enshrined in international law?

Neither side is innocent of 'project fear' just as neither side was innocent in the Scottish referendum.

a reply to: Freeborn

Well, the leadership have a seat at the big table now. There isn't an assimilation of the six counties, it's true, but most republicans were people that wanted representation, the actual numbers of proper, hard line, Republicans were always small compared to those that merely felt as though they had no where else to turn.


I don't know if you have ever known any of them, I have, two, not bombers or anything, just ordinary people who, like I said, put their hands in their pockets. They didn't hate Brits or Protestants or anyone else for that matter, they did however feel though that without the actions of the provos, their voices, their opinions, counted for nothing.

I don't support the IRA or associated groups, I don't support the UVF and their ilk either. I've lost a mate in NI and known people suffer from PTSD as a result of serving there, so lets just get that clear.


Now we are on to proof...How to prove that the government has fixed an election? You can't, because there are too many people in positions of influence who can set the agenda, making sure it will never come out.

I would say, though, that people in the UK are far too complacent with all the "It can never happen here" talk. It's exactly the kind of thinking that allows room for those who would subvert democracy.

Just look at the weight of reporting given to Remain and Leave up to now.....The entire government is briefing remain, all the channels carry everything produced by remain and fail to question the vast majority of it, while anything by leave is given lip service and added on as a small counter afterwards, if at all.

All the big political parties support remain, so there is effectively no "opposition" in parliament, the whole thing stinks to me, as someone who has for years wanted out of the EU based on the regular stories run by MAG (The motorcycle action group- a pro rider's rights organisation that opposes EU anti bike measures) and my old union the RMT (Rail Maritime and Transport workers - who have for years warned against and opposed EU measures which restrict freedom and harm the rights of EU workers in those industries).

a reply to: uncommitted

Yes, I agree that the Brexit campaigners haven't exactly been covering themselves in glory but that seems to be more to do with their incompetence and the pathetic standards of those who put themselves up for 'public service' these days.
Boris Johnson is an absolute joke and is the Remain camps biggest asset.

There is nonsense spouted on both sides - much of that seems to be due to the British public's limited attention span and apparent inability to process anything like reasoned or 'complex' publications etc.

All probably down to the sustained dumbing down of British society that has been going on for quite some time now.
Now we know why!

But the Remain campaigners have been able to call on significantly more sophisticated and expensive resources to voice their case.
It can hardly be called an even balanced or funded campaign.

a reply to: uncommitted

That BBC piece, the answer they give is that the UK has an ability to affect the legislation through our MEP's

Which is a bit shady, don't you think? Since we have, what, 8% or so of MEP's in the parliament? That's like expecting the Lib Dems to hold sway in the house of commons, so no, I don't buy your point about that.

As I said above re vote rigging, those with the reins of power can make sure that allegations remain just that, but when something like this happens www.independent.co.uk...
(The missing ballot boxes from Thanet) Then one's radar ought to chirp, don't you think?


As for the funding what you call terrorism thing, well, when you get right down to it, we all turn a blind eye to the fact our taxes kill people, have them spirited away and tortured, have their lives ruined and so on, what's the difference? Except perhaps a few levels of separation?

a reply to: sapien82

I think this is a #ing joke , every single person who wanted us to stay in the United kingdom is now screaming to leave the EU

Not quite true....but I can certainly see why you feel that way.

Please take the time to read this reply I made to a fellow countryman of yours in another thread.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

.... if we leave we will still have the tories in power #ing us hard in the ass , if we remain in the EU at least we stand the chance of a reach around

I agree with the first part, but its exactly the same for us in North East England.

But I really don't understand your logic on the second bit.

The UK is heading towards even more and more devolved power to the regions.
The EU is all about increased power to the centralised government in Brussels and less power to the national elected assemblies.

Surely that's the opposite of what Scotland wants, isn't it?

a reply to: arpgme

They made the maps with all the boarders. The Earth doesn't have any boarders (lines) when seen from space.

True in a sense but if you look for the true borders you will find them in the languages .Even among the different tribes of the Algonquin"s they were bordered usually by rivers or spaces between them . I guess that is why the ME has big problems with the borders that were drawn up for them by the Europeans because it cut right through tribes and even families ....

a reply to: SprocketUK
UK MEPs have 12 - 13% of votes, slightly lower than Germany that has 16%. That actually gives us quite a strong hand in determining a vote, but of course not on our own - and I'm glad of that. The whole point of a union is that everyone has a view and opinion. If we cannot influence the opinion, if we are markedly at odds with every other party then maybe, just maybe, we are the ones in the wrong - it happens. I'm not asking you to buy the point. You stated that we never won a vote, statistics say we were part of the winning vote 86.7 % of the time.

That link from the Independent you provided? It's not from Thanet, it's from Hilltop, Eastwood, which is approximately 3 miles from where I am sitting as I type this. It's for a council election, the ballot boxes were allegedly mislaid and after opening and counting actually did nothing other than increase the amount of winning votes for the Labour councillor - are you sure you posted the right link?

Please don't keep trying to justify your comments about financing a terrorist group, let it go, you've made your opinion plain, I've given my opinion back. Let's leave that one at that........... although if (when?) the IRA should next carry out an attack I reserve the right to ask you if you are happy about it.

originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: SprocketUK
UK MEPs have 12 - 13% of votes, slightly lower than Germany that has 16%. That actually gives us quite a strong hand in determining a vote, but of course not on our own - and I'm glad of that. The whole point of a union is that everyone has a view and opinion. If we cannot influence the opinion, if we are markedly at odds with every other party then maybe, just maybe, we are the ones in the wrong - it happens. I'm not asking you to buy the point. You stated that we never won a vote, statistics say we were part of the winning vote 86.7 % of the time.

That link from the Independent you provided? It's not from Thanet, it's from Hilltop, Eastwood, which is approximately 3 miles from where I am sitting as I type this. It's for a council election, the ballot boxes were allegedly mislaid and after opening and counting actually did nothing other than increase the amount of winning votes for the Labour councillor - are you sure you posted the right link?

Please don't keep trying to justify your comments about financing a terrorist group, let it go, you've made your opinion plain, I've given my opinion back. Let's leave that one at that........... although if (when?) the IRA should next carry out an attack I reserve the right to ask you if you are happy about it.

My bad, too many tabs open and I copied the wrong one, I was referring to Thanet even though I posted the wrong link. You do remember the count being delayed and delayed and delayed again until the missing ballots turned up, don't you?

There are 751 MEP's, the UK elects 73, so 10.2%

The 12% you quote refers (I think) to our representation on the unelected council of ministers, a body in which we have never successfully opposed a measure. So still awful from our point of view.

Whilst I don't want to see people getting hurt and stuff being blown up, the point is it happens, doesn't it? At what point does that evil get overtaken by the other evil of not having a say in how one's life is run?

Maybe for you, never, but everyone is different, there were similar arguments during the American Revolutionary war, I don't see why this is so different really.

a reply to: paraphi

Because you cannot prove an election is rigged doesn't mean that it's not.



Britain will stay in the EU, whether you like it or not.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
I guess that is why the ME has big problems with the borders that were drawn up for them by the Europeans because it cut right through tribes and even families ....

You need to research this subject more carefully. You will discover that this oft cited accusation is lazy history by people who want to blame someone else and like the generalisation. More appropriate to blame the Otterman Empire, Suleiman the Magnificent and the age old belligerence between different denominations of Islam.

Anyway, back to topic. This may be useful, if you are inclined to believe in the polls. The "remain" position seems the one that is winning at the moment. Oh, I also have a healthy regard fro the British electorate, which is fairly sophisticated and sees through political blabberings.

Financial times
BBC poll of polls