Proof that logically God cannot be omnipotent..

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed
God requires honor now. Stop watching game of throwns please, your getting mixed between the two. And now god was never quoted as saying "the winter is coming"

a reply to: chr0naut
Why would god create billions of inhabitable planets where life can't exist to worship him and provide him money. Saturn's rings do not have tax exemption.

Why would god create a planet that is 70% water, most of which would kill us if we drank it. If we are the chosen species (for whatever reason you choose to believe this) why would he make the planet in this way. Seems irrational to me.

originally posted by: GemmyMcGemJew
a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed
God requires honor now. Stop watching game of throwns please, your getting mixed between the two. And now god was never quoted as saying "the winter is coming"

Showing God you honor him by observing the virtues I mentioned before can go a long ways to being shown mercy and grace when you need it most in life. I know because I have experienced it personally. But it isn't a requirement. Freewill dictates by it's own virtue that you don't have to honor anything though. Stop twisting everything like all the God haters on here, it isn't doing you any favors.

originally posted by: GemmyMcGemJew
a reply to: chr0naut
Why would god create billions of inhabitable planets where life can't exist to worship him and provide him money. Saturn's rings do not have tax exemption.

Why would god create a planet that is 70% water, most of which would kill us if we drank it. If we are the chosen species (for whatever reason you choose to believe this) why would he make the planet in this way. Seems irrational to me.

One could easily reason that God doesn't need money, or our worship, or even our acknowledgement of His existence, because If He wanted those, He'd simply make it happen, and we would be helpless to resist His will.

Perhaps the reason He isn't amassing wealth, is the issue of where would He ever spend it? Do you imagine that there is some cosmic corner shop where God would go? I mean what would be the point of wealth to God? Similar reasoning can be applied to tax exemptions (I'd be interested to know who collects the tax on Saturn's rings, and, if taxation law is applicable, why?).

God has probably also created billions of inhabitable planets where life (some of it conscious and intelligent) exists, otherwise "it's an awful waste of space".

The Bible does say that there are several types of non-human, intelligent, conscious beings called angels. Why not other forms of intelligent life that are none of any human's business and therefore wouldn't be included in the Bible. There ARE verses in the Bible that hint at 'other' creatures under God's protection. The assumption that humans are at the apex of all creation is baseless. We have been granted dominion only over life on Earth.

It also seems that creation of all sorts of things is something God likes doing. There is both variety and complexity in our universe that randomness and an arrangement of mindless forces could never produce.

Consider variety: in physics, we know that pretty much everything settles towards a stable point, which is the state with the lowest energy. So, logically, every atom in the universe should be exactly the same. Tweak the fundamental constants of the universe slightly one way and you get Hydrogen and nothing else. Tweak it other way only by billionths and you get only energy and no matter.

The universe exists on a thousand ridiculous 'knife edge' values that produce incredible variety, not a stable uniformity, in nearly everything we look at. This is totally statistically improbable. We live in the most improbable universe we can imagine or understand with science and mathematics. This "fine tuning" of the universe is hard to deny and suggests intention more than anything else we might call upon to explain it.

God has made our planet with sufficient drinkable water for its inhabitants. The other which, although we can't drink it, is habitation and sustenance for other species (some of them, like Cetaceans, conscious and intelligent). Our planet has a number of interdependent ecologies, not all are for humans, yet our entire planetary system would suffer if any one was removed (the Gaia hypothesis). We would be ignorant to assume that we are the only species on this planet that has potential.

God is a big a big and quite rational concept.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: JoshuaCox

" if God is all powerful than he cannot be all good, but if God is all good, then he cannot be all powerful."

Explain to me why god cannot be omnipotent if he is all "good", which is a relative term anyway, just as omnipotence is.

Because the universe is not all good and since the universe would be a reflection of its creator, then God would not be all good..

Nature doesn't care if you are good or evil, young or old.

You are basing "good" and "evil" as it relates to you or us as humans. Why do the concepts apply to God exactly?

originally posted by: GemmyMcGemJew
a reply to: chr0naut
Why would god create billions of inhabitable planets where life can't exist to worship him and provide him money. Saturn's rings do not have tax exemption.

Why would god create a planet that is 70% water, most of which would kill us if we drank it. If we are the chosen species (for whatever reason you choose to believe this) why would he make the planet in this way. Seems irrational to me.

Because humans think they have everything figured out and attribute human emotion, logic, reason to God and then use those limited things to make arguments against the state of things. People need to stop bringing God down to our cognitive,emotional,logical level and then using that to.formulate arguments.

Your stacking the deck for your own purposes.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

If we are to assume the film's writers and directors stayed true to their source material, then they stayed true to character which has been largely shaped by Grant Morrison and his worldview.

It is similar to the line by Capt. America in Avengers where he tells Black Widow that there is only one God and he's pretty sure he doesn't dress like that. Joss Whedon is a noted atheist, but when fans called him on it, he said that the source material for Cap is that Cap is not. Hence, the line stayed in order to be true to the material and the character.

So, the line would be something straight from standard occultist/atheist understanding of God - a creature masquerading as omniscient who isn't because he is deceiving the world.

originally posted by: GemmyMcGemJew
a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed
God requires honor now. Stop watching game of throwns please, your getting mixed between the two. And now god was never quoted as saying "the winter is coming"

Nope but he was quoted as saying, and I'm paraphrasing...

" kill every man woman and child of the phillistines. Take no slaves, kill even the herd animals."

"Kill your son to prove to me I am your God"

"Noah, I'm gonna flood the planet killing roughly a billion people. Afterward I want your family to commit incest so you can repopulate the earth."

"Worship and obey your slave owner as if he was Jesus himself."

"Tho shalt not suffer a witch to live."

" I Murdered Job's family in a weird bet with Satan... But no biggie cause I won!! Yay!"

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: JoshuaCox

If we are to assume the film's writers and directors stayed true to their source material, then they stayed true to character which has been largely shaped by Grant Morrison and his worldview.

It is similar to the line by Capt. America in Avengers where he tells Black Widow that there is only one God and he's pretty sure he doesn't dress like that. Joss Whedon is a noted atheist, but when fans called him on it, he said that the source material for Cap is that Cap is not. Hence, the line stayed in order to be true to the material and the character.

So, the line would be something straight from standard occultist/atheist understanding of God - a creature masquerading as omniscient who isn't because he is deceiving the world.

Im pretty sure that line was written by the bats vs. supes screen writers...and anyone who saw that movie would consider it hilarious that you think was more than loosely based on the comics..

Batman doesn't kill everytime a crook points a gun at him...why dress up in a bat suit and get in fist fights, when you could buy a rifle?

originally posted by: In4ormant

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: JoshuaCox

" if God is all powerful than he cannot be all good, but if God is all good, then he cannot be all powerful."

Explain to me why god cannot be omnipotent if he is all "good", which is a relative term anyway, just as omnipotence is.

Because the universe is not all good and since the universe would be a reflection of its creator, then God would not be all good..

Nature doesn't care if you are good or evil, young or old.

You are basing "good" and "evil" as it relates to you or us as humans. Why do the concepts apply to God exactly?

If God created humanity, the. Our concept of good and evil was provided by him...

No good god would have billions of children die uselessly to random diseases.

No good god would have created a Satan , or sin. There would be no need to, your the one creating everything.

No good god would allow for the free will of a rapist to over rule the free will of his victim.

No good god would sentence billions of people to a firey pit of eternal torture, just because they never heard about Jesus...

If some one were to tell you of gods actions, with out you already being a Christian. You would be horrified. You wouldn't consider god a good god, but a demon..

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: GemmyMcGemJew
a reply to: chr0naut
Why would god create billions of inhabitable planets where life can't exist to worship him and provide him money. Saturn's rings do not have tax exemption.

Why would god create a planet that is 70% water, most of which would kill us if we drank it. If we are the chosen species (for whatever reason you choose to believe this) why would he make the planet in this way. Seems irrational to me.

One could easily reason that God doesn't need money, or our worship, or even our acknowledgement of His existence, because If He wanted those, He'd simply make it happen, and we would be helpless to resist His will.

Perhaps the reason He isn't amassing wealth, is the issue of where would He ever spend it? Do you imagine that there is some cosmic corner shop where God would go? I mean what would be the point of wealth to God? Similar reasoning can be applied to tax exemptions (I'd be interested to know who collects the tax on Saturn's rings, and, if taxation law is applicable, why?).

God has probably also created billions of inhabitable planets where life (some of it conscious and intelligent) exists, otherwise "it's an awful waste of space".

The Bible does say that there are several types of non-human, intelligent, conscious beings called angels. Why not other forms of intelligent life that are none of any human's business and therefore wouldn't be included in the Bible. There ARE verses in the Bible that hint at 'other' creatures under God's protection. The assumption that humans are at the apex of all creation is baseless. We have been granted dominion only over life on Earth.

It also seems that creation of all sorts of things is something God likes doing. There is both variety and complexity in our universe that randomness and an arrangement of mindless forces could never produce.

Consider variety: in physics, we know that pretty much everything settles towards a stable point, which is the state with the lowest energy. So, logically, every atom in the universe should be exactly the same. Tweak the fundamental constants of the universe slightly one way and you get Hydrogen and nothing else. Tweak it other way only by billionths and you get only energy and no matter.

The universe exists on a thousand ridiculous 'knife edge' values that produce incredible variety, not a stable uniformity, in nearly everything we look at. This is totally statistically improbable. We live in the most improbable universe we can imagine or understand with science and mathematics. This "fine tuning" of the universe is hard to deny and suggests intention more than anything else we might call upon to explain it.

God has made our planet with sufficient drinkable water for its inhabitants. The other which, although we can't drink it, is habitation and sustenance for other species (some of them, like Cetaceans, conscious and intelligent). Our planet has a number of interdependent ecologies, not all are for humans, yet our entire planetary system would suffer if any one was removed (the Gaia hypothesis). We would be ignorant to assume that we are the only species on this planet that has potential.

God is a big a big and quite rational concept.

The "fine tuning" of the universe is the oldest, easily debunked BS argument..

If the universe were not able to support life, we would not be here to question it..

The Big Bang theory and quantum mechanics include a hyperspace and multiverse. With an infinite number of "dice rolls" with the majority not being conducive to life.

Humanity, nature nor the universe is "fine tuned". They are all filled with evolutionary mistakes, dead ends and inefficiency..

Hell, look at the age and unused space of the universe...it is the least efficient system imaginable..

originally posted by: GemmyMcGemJew
a reply to: chr0naut
Why would god create billions of inhabitable planets where life can't exist to worship him and provide him money. Saturn's rings do not have tax exemption.

Why would god create a planet that is 70% water, most of which would kill us if we drank it. If we are the chosen species (for whatever reason you choose to believe this) why would he make the planet in this way. Seems irrational to me.

Or at the VERY LEAST horribly inefficient....

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Your entire premise is based upon the false assumption that the ONLY reason God would not act is due to incapacity.

Your premise takes no account of choice.

God may simply not choose to create something beyond His capacity. If it doesn't exist, it isn't actually part of the multiverse, which is entirely the creation of God, and therefore it isn't a something which would be beyond God.

But if he were to chose to do so??

I just can't imagain that omnipotence can exist and human intellegence beat it...

Rationally, God has reason to do His actions. He wouldn't thrash about irrationally, doing stuff without point or purpose, that is surely not the nature of God as revealed.

I would also doubt that human intelligence is sufficient to out-think God, but if our concept of God were a ridiculous caricature, I wouldn't expect it to stand up to rational onslaught.

What?!?! There is nothing rational or efficient about the universe!!!

It is quit literally the embodiment of chaos and inefficency..

Why create a universe 14 billion years ago, but only create your center piece 200,000 years ago!??

Why allow children to be raped and murdered, then allow their attackers to become rich and famous??

Why have 99.99999% of the universe be EXTREMLY hostel to your center pieces life?

Nothing about any of the bible is efficient nor logical...and in no way, shape, form or fashion could the majority of the actions attributed (by the bible!) to God be considered benevolent nor good...at best the Christian God would be neutral.

a reply to: JoshuaCox
Always annoys me when people say only god can make something this perfect...do these people have eyes? Are they completely oblivious to the environment to which they live it.

originally posted by: GemmyMcGemJew
a reply to: JoshuaCox
Always annoys me when people say only god can make something this perfect...do these people have eyes? Are they completely oblivious to the environment to which they live it.

Damn humanity and it's treasured "pattern recognition..."

a reply to: chr0naut
Not sure if your just being polite or failed to acknowledge my sarcasm.

I won't tackle your other points cos they are well articulated, although I don't agree with them.

Although I have to ask what other species have potential? Do you mean in terms of gaining a soul/ Kingdom of heaven entry? Or apes have the potential to be human beings? Not entirely sure what you mean by that particular point.

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed
Are these the only virtues to communicating with god? Did you know of these before or did god guide you to recognise these as the key characteristics to possess for god to acknowledge you?

I was once christian and had all those characteristics when I was a child. I welcomed him, was innocent and pure. Did I need to have something bad happen in my life first, mid life crisis or go to prison before I found him. That tends to be the quickest route according to all testimony.

a reply to: Tiamat384

God being all good or all powerful aside, do you honestly believe that we were miraculously created through a random big bang, which is seemingly so incredibly hard to duplicate if not for some supreme being?

a reply to: JoshuaCox

I haven't read the whole thread yet, so if this has already been pointed out, my apologies.

So could God create a boulder that is to big even for him to lift?? If he can't make a boulder that big, he can't do something.. If there is a boulder too big for him to lift, then he can't do something....

Which boulder is too heavy to be lifted?



There is no boulder that hasn't already been lifted.

As far as this assertion; "" if God is all powerful than he cannot be all good, but if God is all good, then he cannot be all powerful."

One must define "good". Personally, I think "good" is a construct that only exists in an individuals perception and that there is no such thing as "objective goodness".

Since I define "god" as "The Unverse", i.e. everything that is, whose body is manifest in the universe and whose mind is manifest in all things conscious, the way I see it, without question, The Universe, AKA "God", IS all powerful.

a reply to: windword
So god is doing all the evil, not man? Or we gonna throw freewill into the equation no nullify your own point.