If reincarnation is not true, then Elijah did not return before the Christ as prophesized

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: KlassifiedThere is a problem because Elijah did not die and therefore cannot be reincarnated. One must have died to be incarnated again.

The funny thing is many will not take the bible literal except where they want to in order to try and find fault or error.

If I remember correctly, in 2 Kings and 2 Chronicles Elijah wrote a letter to one of the Kings (Jehoram?) several years after the whirlwind event. Was he taken to heaven, or the heavens(sky)? Sounds to me as though he was relocated, else how could he have written such a letter after being "taken to heaven"? Of course, this is another debatable topic that not all Christians agree on, but it is notable that the debate is there, and is also notable the letter is not questioned in 2 Chronicles.

Had to look those up, my memory on those isn't as good as it once was. lol.

a reply to: Klassified

Could not this letter have come from beyond by the hand of an unnamed prophet?

Of course it cold.

Another answer is there are two king Jeroham. One who is a king of Israel and the other a king of Judah. there are two sets of kings one over ten tribes to the north and one over two tribes in Judah.

John said he wasn't Elijah, but Jesus didn't lie. Maybe John just didn't know but Jesus did.

That is why they give JTB a camel coat but the real Baptist would not have worn animal hide because he was a vegetarian.

But reincarnation is a Christian teaching but it is sold as resurrection so you fear hell.

If you walk with God you will never taste death.

If you master your Self you will ascend like Elijah did. And Enoch and Christ and Mohammed.

Wisdom and knowledge and should never be discarded for superstitious beliefs though. It is all allegory. Reincarnation or Heaven when you die, those are your possibilities. God never created hell it is a scare tactic.

Reincarnation was taught by the early church.

a reply to: arpgme

The answer lies in a succession of blessings passed from Elijah to John.

John had the power to Baptize for repentance but When JC returned from Egypt John baptized him and passed the Elijah-Elisha blessing PLUS the HS descended.

Personally I think John also never died and ascended safely to Heaven and the decapitation story is another allegory and cover story for John is AN Elijah. El saves or 'God saves' is what Elijah means, and Baptism is how he does it now. It was like a position. The pre-Messiah. Elisha was twice as blessed as his predecessor Elijah so it is a retelling of an earlier concept.

He has a church still to this day called the Mandaeans who just never switched to Christianity because John deserves his own disciples.

a reply to: Klassified

When the Bible says he ascended to Heaven in a whirlwind it is just a legend to establish Elijah as in the same league as Enoch and other Wise Ones who "didn't taste death."

It has been established that the Bible mixes in only some altered versions of history and is not Holy because of the stories but because of the secrets the stories conceal and preserve.

Otherwise they are pretty silly stories and you can benefit from reading the whole thing but it is even greater if it opens the floodgates of wisdom and that fire for knowledge other than the profane literal belief that it is a record of real people and events. Ezra was the first person who probably really existed in the Bible if he really did. It seems like he copied and took the Torah from a temple atop I believe my Horeb and used the Chaldeans tale of creation and the flood and invented the rest based on the usual tales of sibling rivalry and war over and over and invents a completely mythological book that is Holy because of the secret of the Mysteries in it.

The same Mystery religions that Christians hate and think God destroyed are concealed and revealed in the Bible for the seeker to find.

a reply to: Klassified

Check out this PDF domoregooddeeds.wordpress.com...

You just have to search the sight for: tony bushby secret in the bible.

It is an altogether awesome site.

I hope you can do PDF's because it is a great book with ancient Egypt and the Bible being linked but after Babylon not from Moses who never was a real person.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Klassified

Could not this letter have come from beyond by the hand of an unnamed prophet?

Of course it cold.

Another answer is there are two king Jeroham. One who is a king of Israel and the other a king of Judah. there are two sets of kings one over ten tribes to the north and one over two tribes in Judah.

Could not this letter have come from beyond by the hand of an unnamed prophet?

But did it, and does the bible say it did?

Yes, I am aware of those things, and it's been a while since I've combed through those, but I believe it was the correct Jehoram, son of Ahab, brother of Ahaziah. Nevertheless, we also have this to deal with in John 3...

13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

The funny thing is many will not take the bible literal except where they want to in order to try and find fault or error.

Nothing new Chester. It is one of the reasons there are so many sects of Christianity. And it is one of the reasons we have such division in the world on so many levels.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

One must have died to be incarnated again.

That is not a valid argument. The (liberated) spirit can come and go as it pleases, including commanding more than one body/live at one time. These souls/spirits are called "oversouls".

a reply to: windwordIt is a valid argument seeing the very meaning of reincarnation means that the first body dies and they are born into another body. Also reincarnation is considered a Phylosophy.

Reincarnation is the philosophical or religious concept that a living being after biological death, can begin a new life in a new body. This is also called rebirth or transmigration, and is a part of the Saṃsāra doctrine of cyclic existence.Reincarnation

This is not the case with Elijah. And neither is Elijah a liberated spirit seeing he was taken body and soul up into heaven. He is not a spirit to possess someone else's body because he has his own body. A man cannot exist in two bodies at the same time.

a reply to: KlassifiedIt is not a mystery, a problem or an error. There was a divided kingdom and two men with the same name and both were kings of their respective kingdoms.

Ahab was A king of the northern kingdom as was his son Jehoram. But the Jehoram you mention is king of Judah, these are two different kings. And Elijah was present during the reign of King Jehoram king of Judah but not during the reign of Jehoram king of Israel.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

It is a valid argument seeing the very meaning of reincarnation means that the first body dies and they are born into another body. Also reincarnation is considered a Phylosophy.

No. No "death" is not a requirement of reincarnation. The only requirement of reincarnation is that one has been previously incarnated, as Elijah was. Plenty souls walk away or are snatched away so as not to experience death.

Consider the example given in the movie "Avatar" where science allows an individual to remain in stasis while they occupy another body. Only, in reality, the soul can multi task, existing in more than one reality at a time, and doesn't need to go into stasis.

Buddhist philosophy, which acknowledges reincarnation as a fact, not a philosophy, teaches that everything is one. There is no separation. God is everywhere and everything, and so are we. The goal is to reach this realization and to reach a whole state of beingness, "one with god". Individuality is an illusion. Death is an illusion, and is not required for reincarnation.

And neither is Elijah a liberated spirit seeing he was taken body and soul up into heaven.

Why wasn't Elijah liberated? Jesus' body and soul was also taken up to heaven, wasn't he liberated? Jesus said that "everyone" who is born again comes and goes as they desire, like the wind.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

But, it doesn't matter, because it's all allegory. We all eternal beings, that reincarnate from time to time, as the need arises, and we all have the same abilities to co-exist in more than one reality at a time.

a reply to: windword You must have missed the terms of requirements for reincarnation "BIOLOGICAL DEATH".

Elijah still has his original body and unless you can prove he does not then he cannot be re-incarnated.

The wind verse is about God's Spirit and his work

Greatest excuse of unbelief is "it is all allegory"

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: KlassifiedIt is not a mystery, a problem or an error. There was a divided kingdom and two men with the same name and both were kings of their respective kingdoms.

Ahab was A king of the northern kingdom as was his son Jehoram. But the Jehoram you mention is king of Judah, these are two different kings. And Elijah was present during the reign of King Jehoram king of Judah but not during the reign of Jehoram king of Israel.

I am already aware of what you keep pointing out... I have checked myself thrice on this, and EVERYTHING I have checked so far, tells me it is King Jehoram(of Judah) that received the letter some years into his reign. Scripture says nothing about it being a forgery. Nevertheless, it isn't worth arguing over. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I do however, see why this is still debated by some scholars. lol.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

You must have missed the terms of requirements for reincarnation "BIOLOGICAL DEATH".

The requirement according to WIKIPEDIA! Give me a break! How many spirits were there called "Legion", that inhabited a man's body and then fled to reincarnate in a herd of pigs? How many spirits did Jesus cast out of Mary Magdalene? How many bodies does the spirit of Jesus Christ inhabit?

Your myopic view of one spirit one body, is just as fallacious as believing that one man can only have one wife. Yours, and others who do not understand the ideology of free spirits, that can come and go as they please, is NOT my problem. Your ignorance doesn't define the rules of "reincarnation".

Disembodied spirits are often said to temporarily take on the body of animals, even insects; i.e. butterflies, dragonflies, or birds, to get messages to their loved ones, after their death. No one believes that those animals, birds and insects, don't have to die for those spirits to be free of those chosen, but temporary bodies.

Elijah still has his original body and unless you can prove he does not then he cannot be re-incarnated.

Look, I'm just humoring you, and others, who have asserted that Elijah never died and that he still has his original fleshy body, even though that thought goes against Jewish tradition. But death isn't a requirement reincarnation, as death and separation are illusions. The only requirment for reincarnation is to have been previously incarnated.

There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that Elijah was immortal and that his body is still in tact as it was 3500 year ago, and is not celebrated by any Jewish tradition. That's just your own biased eisegesis.

The fact remains that the prophecy says that God will send Elijah. Jesus said that John the Baptist was/is Elijah.

You don't understand reincarnation, so you should probably avoid discussing it, because it just makes you look dumb.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

The wind verse is about God's Spirit and his work

Not it's not. Stop making stuff up to fit your personal biases!

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

a reply to: windwordDevils had bodies at one time then they were killed off in the flood found in Genesis 1:2.

They were not reincarnated into pigs the pigs were already alive. reincarnation means that they were born into a new body not possessed new bodies. That is possession.

Now you re confusing possession with reincarnation and the two are not the same.

As far as John being a reincarnation of Elijah you are incorrect because he was taken bodily into heaven. He still has his body. No proof that he does not have his body anymore lay on you not the scriptures.

I know reincarnation just fine it is you who deny its fundamental requirement of biological death of one body before the supposed soul it is born into a new body via biological birth.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: ChesterJohn

The wind verse is about God's Spirit and his work

Not it's not. Stop making stuff up to fit your personal biases!

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

You are the one making stuff up.

The capital S tells us it is the Holy Ghost not anyone's and everyone's spirit. It is the Born again state that Jews must accept. but taking the verse out of its context allows you to make it say anything so here is the contextual verses

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Devils had bodies at one time then they were killed off in the flood found in Genesis 1:2.

More unsubstantiated eisegesis to back your bias! The bible confirms no such thing.

Spirits/souls are just that, and nothing else. Reincarnation dictates no "demons" or "angels" that are spiritual entities apart from us. We are all the same. Some are just more or less capable than others and chose different forms of expression through various forms of incarnation.

Now you re confusing possession with reincarnation and the two are not the same.

No, you are the one who is confused, through your own myopia. I possess my body. I will resurrect from this gravity well, after I leave my body, and I may or may not choose to reincarnate in another earthly body. Who knows, I may travel to a far off planet, one which I've never been to, and reincarnate there, where I have never before incarnated, for the first time, again!

As far as John being a reincarnation of Elijah you are incorrect because he was taken bodily into heaven. He still has his body. No proof that he does not have his body anymore lay on you not the scriptures.

You are in no position to tell me that I am incorrect. The only thing that you can say, with any intellectual honesty is that we disagree.

There is no scripture to validate your claim. While, there is plenty of scripture to back mine. But, as I said before, it doesn't matter whether or not Elijah experienced a biological death, he had to come back to earth to pave the way for the Messiah. If he didn't do that through John the Baptist, then Jesus of Nazareth isn't The Messiah.

I know reincarnation just fine it is you who deny its fundamental requirement of biological death of one body before the supposed soul it is born into a new body via biological birth.

Nope. You don't have a clue.

You are the one who is denying the teaching of your own lord and savior, Jesus of Nazareth, who said that a free spirit, one who has been born again, can come and go, like the wind. No death required. As a matter of fact, no death is a promise, to those who are born again!

"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

.....so is EVERYONE that is born of the Spirit.

That's what I said, "EVERYONE".

Do you think that Elijah was NOT born in the "Spirit", and that he can't come and go?