If reincarnation is not true, then Elijah did not return before the Christ as prophesized

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Klassified

I guess it boils down to "Who are going to believe, Luke's 2nd or 3rd hand narrative, or the supposed actual quoted words of Jesus of Nazareth?"

Matthew 11:14
And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

I don't think either of us takes the bible too seriously. And obviously, it's open to interpretation, because the bible is so ambiguous anyway. A case could be made for both, which is why even Christians are divided on it. I personally, think Jesus was speaking figuratively, but reincarnation wasn't exactly unknown in his day, so Luke could have taken it either way. Here again, I like the the reincarnation angle, I just don't think the text supports it. But it's just my opinion, not "gospel".

a reply to: windword

Yes, I do understand the concept of reincarnation. There is an eternal spirit our soul that simply takes on new flesh bodies as the need arises.

And I am saying that no one ever saw Elijah shed his last "flesh vehicle." Hence, we do not know that Elijah died.

As for fire not consuming ... what happened to Elijah is less explicitly someone being consumed by fire than what happened to Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego who were forced into a raging flame for not worshipping a person instead of God, and they were most explicitly NOT consumed. If they can walk into and out of the flame at God's choosing, so can Elijah.

a reply to: Klassified

I don't think either of us takes the bible too seriously.

Here's what I think. I think there was a story, and that story was retold and changed as needed, depending on the time it was re-written and who the audience was. The original story NEEDS reincarnation for it to be valid. The further you read through the New Testament, the more convoluted the message becomes.

There is no doubt in my mind that biblical words quoted in "red" as the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth include the concept of eternal life and reincarnation.

A case could be made for both, which is why even Christians are divided on it.

Christians are "divided" on the topic because the Roman Catholic Church banned its teaching and declared its adherents "heretics" in 500AD, ala Emperor Justinian. Before that it was widely accepted and taught by the likes of Christian fathers, such as Origen.

a reply to: ketsuko

As for fire not consuming ... what happened to Elijah is less explicitly someone being consumed by fire than what happened to Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego who were forced into a raging flame for not worshipping a person instead of God, and they were most explicitly NOT consumed.

That is a different story altogether, that address the need for faith, as if one is walking through a fire. Of course its allegorical, as are all bible stories, and not based on reality. Elijah's story isn't one based on surviving through fiery faith
.

And I am saying that no one ever saw Elijah shed his last "flesh vehicle." Hence, we do not know that Elijah died.

No on ever saw Elijah die? Fine. That doesn't mean that his body wouldn't have disintegrate under the circumstances, or that Elijah needed his flesh and blood in Heaven.

There is no use for a flesh and blood body outside the realm of this earthly existence. If Elijah was raptured to heaven, he was, by tradition "given new clothes".

Zachariah 3;3
Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. 4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

Elijah, being human would also have filthy garments.

Yes, I do understand the concept of reincarnation. There is an eternal spirit our soul that simply takes on new flesh bodies as the need arises.

The "born again" spirit can take up any kind of body, angelic, cosmic, animal, vegetable or mineral.

The promise Jesus made of eternal life to his followers was that they would never "taste" death, not that their fleshy bodies would exist forever. There is no "death" for the "born again", even though their bodies may decay and cease to exist. We do not die, the body does, and we are not our bodies.

Even if your premise is true, and Elijah kept his earthly body, for some such reason, while he was heaven waiting for God's timing to send him back to Earth, as the prophecy dictates, It was Elijah's spirit that was reborn into John the Baptist's body, according to Jesus of Nazareth. Then Elijah's "first" body" might have been "sleeping" in heaven while he took on his second incarnation in another body, in order to fulfill God's orders.

But, in reincarnation, there are no rules. A soul, or "oversoul", may command several bodies/lives simultaneously, as time isn't what we think it is. In this case, Elijah could be more than one place at one "time", as could any of us who are "born again" spirits.

Elija was seen with Moses at christs transfiguration
Mathew 17 11 12
Bit silly to say Elijah was Elijah, then John then Elijah again isn't it

John the Baptist never identified himself as Elijah, in fact he identified himself as a prophet in the line up f Isaiah, unless Elijah was Isaiah as well
Then it would have been Elijah turns into Isaiah, then Elijah then John the Baptist then back into Elijah again or was that one to many Elijah's, silly me

But hey, I won't make you believe anything that you don't want to believe.

Never once is reincarnation cyclic existence discussed in the bible, anywhere, ever

a reply to: Raggedyman

John the Baptist never identified himself as Elijah,

Who are you going to believe, Jesus or John?

in fact he identified himself as a prophet Isaiah

Not that Isaiah couldn't have reincarnated as Elijah, but do have a biblical citation for this assertion?

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Raggedyman

John the Baptist never identified himself as Elijah,

Who are you going to believe, Jesus or John?

in fact he identified himself as a prophet Isaiah

Not that Isaiah couldn't have reincarnated as Elijah, but do have a biblical citation for this assertion?

Who am i going to believe, Jesus or John?
Seems you want me to believe some theological hack who probably copied this thread from some other theological hack from the web somewhere, gave no information to explain this view, didn't even dip his toes in the water of a reasonable theory and linked nothing that could validate this nonsense and you want me to chose Jesus or John based on the drivel provided by the OP?

Jesus or John?
Great call, let's not make it about some unschooled 21st century untrained theologians translation incompetence of understanding the text, reading your own opinion into text, ignoring all other text, anti Christian babble and make it about Jesus or John

Sorry windy, you don't even get up of the floor for this one

a reply to: Raggedyman

Way to sidestep the questions.

Do you have a citation for Elijah being the reincarnation of Isaiah?

Was Jesus lying when he said this: And if ye will receive it, this IS Elias, which was for to come.
?

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Raggedyman

Way to sidestep the questions.

Do you have a citation for Elijah being the reincarnation of Isaiah?

Was Jesus lying when he said this: And if ye will receive it, this IS Elias, which was for to come.
?

I never said Elijah was a reincarnation of Isaiah, Elijah was before isaiah, shows you how much you know
Elijah, Isaiah and then John, all completely different men, individuals.
Did Jesus lie, no, you just don't understand how to read the bible, it's not written like a novel, clearly you think it is, that's sad.
Theologians spend years learning and studying the written word and you think you can pick it up and understand it better than anyone
You read a thread title with no evidence, no logic, no back up, no links and think, yeah I believe that, that supports my opinions, I will accept that

And you want me to decide Jesus or John based on that, you can be silly sometimes windy
You want that one single sentence to overturn every other word written to justify your beliefs

No

a reply to: Raggedyman
As usual, you sidestep any direct challenge with a tirade of nonsense, and also changed your post after she quoted you. Windword is not by any means ignorant of scripture. I'd venture to say she knows it better than you do by far.

Her stance is fair, even if I don't necessarily agree. I can at least be open-minded enough to look at her points, and consider the possibility of what she is saying.

a reply to: Raggedyman

I never said Elijah was a reincarnation of Isaiah, Elijah was before isaiah, shows you how much you know

You said this:

in fact he identified himself as a prophet Isaiah

Do you have a citation to back up assertion?

Theologians spend years learning and studying the written word and you think you can pick it up and understand it better than anyone

I have been studying this stuff probably longer than you've been alive. I'm not alone in my conclusions and they are just as valid as anyone's.

Jesus said: And if ye will receive it, this IS Elias, which was for to come. .

It's not complicated. It says what it says. Either you believe it or you don't.

Look john the baptist was Elijah reincarnated. The prophets said Elijah would come first and he did, jesus even testified that john had the spirit of Elijah ie his soul.

Of course john denied being Elijah, he wasn't lying, he was speaking the truth because he had no memory of a previous life or being Elijah. Almost all of us are born with no memory of our past life so it makes sense that john denied being Elijah because he didnt know any better.

ALL souls have to be born into this world of the flesh including jesus. So dont be looking to the clouds for jesus return because it wont happen like that, he will once again be born here into the flesh.

And you may say well if one has the holy spirit then how do they not know about their past lives or have any memory of it. Has anyone in this day and age who has been born again have any memory of their past lives? Exactly they dont so prophecy WAS fulfilled and john the baptist WAS Elijah

a reply to: windword

I repeat no one saw him die, but someone did see him taken up.

As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two.

Elisha then picked up Elijah’s cloak that had fallen from him and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan. 14 He took the cloak that had fallen from Elijah and struck the water with it. “Where now is the Lord, the God of Elijah?” he asked. When he struck the water, it divided to the right and to the left, and he crossed over.

2 Kings 2: 11-14

Elijah did not take his cloak off prior to being taken up in the chariot of fire, must have been made of asbestos to have survived a fire that completely disintegrated Elijah's body because Elijah's body had to have been disintegrated for Elisha to have seen him no more after the whirlwind. If your interpretation is the one that is correct.

So either God took up Elijah whole, or we have a magic cloak. Either way, one of us must be believing in magic.

I think I'll stick with Elijah going up whole.

a reply to: ketsuko

So either God took up Elijah whole, or we have a magic cloak. Either way, one of us must be believing in magic.

Either way, it doesn't matter whether his body survived its rapture or not for his spirit/soul to reincarnate into the body John the Baptist. Your argument that Elijah didn't die, therefore he couldn't reincarnate, doesn't work.

a reply to: arpgme Yet you ignore where John denied being Elijah (Elias)

John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
John 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

you need to take all the NT scriptures into account and not just pick one. But what is clear John the Baptist did come in the Power and Spirit of Elijah (Elias) as it was told John's father

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

and the lord verified that John did come in that spirit to turn the hearts of the people but John was not a re-incarnation of Elijah. Like Jesus is the incarnation of God, John was the incarnation of Elijah.

Mark 9:11-13 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come? And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

you need to take all the NT scriptures into account and not just pick one.

You pick and choose. You choose to believe John over Jesus of Nazareth, the re-incarnation of Elijah over the incarnation of God.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: ChesterJohn

you need to take all the NT scriptures into account and not just pick one.

You pick and choose. You choose to believe John over Jesus of Nazareth, the re-incarnation of Elijah over the incarnation of God.

Seriously windy, can you not see the fault in basing everything you want to believe about a whole book on one single sentence

It's beyond my comprehension, this is why I would never tell a new Christian to read the bible, it needs to be studied not just read

a reply to: windwordIt is god's preserved word of which Jesus is God. No where does Jesus ever say John is the reincarnation of Elijah. He said if you can accept this Elijah has already come. It does not mean John is Elijah because he is not, but he is of the same order camel skins and the like. He comes in the spirit and power of Elijah as was prophesied about him.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: windwordIt is god's preserved word of which Jesus is God. No where does Jesus ever say John is the reincarnation of Elijah. He said if you can accept this Elijah has already come. It does not mean John is Elijah because he is not, but he is of the same order camel skins and the like. He comes in the spirit and power of Elijah as was prophesied about him.

Actually, he did say that John the Baptist was Elijah in Matthew 11...

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come. 15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Not that you and I are in disagreement, but he does say that. We just see the statement from a different perspective than Windword does. In all fairness, the prophecy and other scriptures involved could be interpreted as a literal reincarnation of Elijah. Also, Elijah appeared at the transfiguration after John's death.

Obviously I agree with you, per my previous posts, but I can certainly understand why Windword and others interpret it as literal. Some Christians do as well, and as stated earlier, at least some of the early church didn't see reincarnation as un-scriptural until later on.

a reply to: KlassifiedThere is a problem because Elijah did not die and therefore cannot be reincarnated. One must have died to be incarnated again.

The funny thing is many will not take the bible literal except where they want to in order to try and find fault or error.