If reincarnation is not true, then Elijah did not return before the Christ as prophesized

a reply to: MamaJ

I'm not spinning anything although I would like to spin your head around the fact there is indeed energy that transforms and doesn't cease. We are always evolving. We are always becoming and any follower of Jesus and his teachings KNOWS this truth because he reveals such in your spirit. I promise you the church doesn't want you to KNOW because how else will they control you other than damning you to hell if you don't follow THEIR way. Has nothing to do with Jesus. The Bible has many layers of truth and imo there are people who will never get it because they haven't transformed/grown enough to actually get it. "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you."

Energy does transform and does not cease to exist. A fact? Well that is our theology but how can we prove it as a fact? If it were indeed a proven fact then it would move out of theology. But yes I believe that. That energy is everlasting life in our theological belief of the everlasting spirit of certain life forms. But all is controlled by the Creator of that particular portion of energy. In our discussion it is the Adamic seeds that we are discussing.

The doctrine of Jesus teaches that the spirit of an Adamic human is that energy, that you postulate, which does continue to exist in consciousness. I firmly believe that and that is what Jesus teaches. I also believe the foreknowledge of the Creator is as you have said --- "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you." But not to be confused as to say that you
knew Him. The Creator with His foreknowledge did know even the end of His own creation but that has nothing to do with your spirit before it was given by the Creator. Before the world was created and formed it was not. And if you were formed from that creation then you were not.

What you are being led into believing is that you are God. The same lie as was told in the Genesis account to Eve. You were known by the Creator to exist in the future but known to exist in the future is not as preexistence. Your terrestrial existence came at a given time and shall cease at a certain time. Your spirit (consciousness) was also created at a certain time and shall also face accountability at a certain time. I must stop there because we cold soon get into a far different discussion.

Now MamaJ, I have no church affiliation whatsoever but if it were possible I would be of the congregation of James and none of the Roman or Greek or their offshoot denominations. But should be and could be are not reality today. I have nothing controlling me whatsoever beside the secular culture in which I exist. I have no preacher or priest or rabbi to control my thoughts or terrorize me in any way. I love my Creator Jesus the Word and His God EL as John 1:1-5 teaches me. That is the doctrine of James and I do this because I believe and not through force from anyone.

a reply to: Seede

Energy does transform and does not cease to exist. A fact? Well that is our theology but how can we prove it as a fact? If it were indeed a proven fact then it would move out of theology.

Seriously? With all respect I can give you right about now... please... do us both a favor and tell me you learned this in school and understand how energy works. It's proven!!

Here is the kicker... not only does it transform but it transfers too.

a reply to: Seede

No, I don't believe I am God.

For the record my beliefs are mine alone (as yours is and hers is and his is, etc..), through my relationship with nature of reality as I see it.

With that said I think we all have ( or don't have) a relationship with God. Some who don't believe in God do however believe in something which sets to inspire or sooth the soul. It's my belief God is that something for the unbeliever who actually does believe as "God" is everything which makes the whole world go round.

a reply to: Seede

And you have the audacity to believe that you can determine that the Apostle John is wrong?

Yes...

Only because it is written in the very words Jesus supposedly spoke...

According to HIS words he was WRONG on both accounts...

John said he wasn't a prophet... Jesus said he was...

John said he wasn't elijah in the spirit or otherwise... Jesus said he was... and IS Elijah

Point being it doesn't matter who said anything about John the baptist... Jesus words trump all others

like i said man... its pretty simple

a reply to: MamaJ

Seriously? With all respect I can give you right about now... please... do us both a favor and tell me you learned this in school and understand how energy works. It's proven!! Here is the kicker... not only does it transform but it transfers too.

You are of the world and you understand as you were taught but regardless of how you understand the terrestrial laws there is nothing that you can produce which proves terrestrial energy lasts indefinitely. Indefinitely can not exist as a truth unless it can be shown. And it cannot be shown simply because it can not exist in time. The laws of the universe are evolving, just as you postulate, and incorporates change. Therefore the laws of which you have learned did not exist in the proportion of which you understand in time.

In the tradition of James, the spirit of an Adamic human is not of your understanding. You can not show the human spirit in a petri dish nor observe it in any fashion. It is not of this terrestrial understanding whatsoever. There are many spirits in the celestial realm and in which one does not conform with or to the others. There are evil spirits and there are Godly spirits and all are created in celestial forces as well as controlled by celestial laws. Your books have no revelations of how these celestial forces perform nor their substance.

In fact your books have no true records of their terrestrial beginnings nor their changes. Remember that evolution requires change and that applies to all terrestrial life as we are taught. But celestial life is a transformation of substance as is told by Jesus. Paul tells us there are terrestrial bodies and then there are celestial bodies which cover the same spirit. What that change is will never be understood by the terrestrial creation.

In light of what I understand, your understanding is very limited to certain terrestrial specifics. That is one reason I shy from terrestrial physics.

a reply to: Seede

In light of what I understand, your understanding is very limited to certain terrestrial specifics. That is one reason I shy from terrestrial physics.

The argument in favor of reincarnation has nothing to do with "terrestrial physics". Your argument is a red herring.

a reply to: windword

The argument in favor of reincarnation has nothing to do with "terrestrial physics". Your argument is a red herring.

There is no argument on my part involved in the subject of reincarnation. But yes, physics has all to do with the change from terrestrial to celestial substance and is the key to reincarnation as well as resurrection even though man will never achieve that knowledge. You know better than that. I believe it is simply that you want a way out of a permanent judgment. Reincarnation is not taught nor has been taught by the prophets or Apostles of Jesus. The only argument is in the minds of those who wish to embrace that foolish concept. You are one of those who wish to change the scriptures to suite your false concepts.

a reply to: Seede

There is no argument on my part involved in the subject of reincarnation. But yes, physics has all to do with the change from terrestrial to celestial substance and is the key to reincarnation as well as resurrection even though man will never achieve that knowledge.

The spirit is not made up of, never was made up of any terrestrial substance. The spiritual is not OF this world. The spirit/soul is the very breath of "God", forever exhaling and inhaling.

Reincarnation is not taught nor has been taught by the prophets or Apostles of Jesus. The only argument is in the minds of those who wish to embrace that foolish concept. You are one of those who wish to change the scriptures to suite your false concepts.

The only evidence that you have to back your argument is John the Baptist's denial, and Paul's assertion that "Christ" doesn't have to reincarnate, to die again to save future generations.

You assert, using tortured narrative, that John the Baptist was possessed by the spirit of Elijah. I fail to see the difference. But, regardless, the Bible says that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit/Ghost before birth. Are Elijah and the Holy Ghost one in the same?

After the transfiguration and the appearance of Moses and Elijah, Jesus himself said this;

MATTHEW 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead." 10 And his disciples asked him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" 11 Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptist.

And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

a reply to: windword

The spirit is not made up of, never was made up of any terrestrial substance. The spiritual is not OF this world. The spirit/soul is the very breath of "God", forever exhaling and inhaling.

Of course. Have never said anything different. Glad that we agree on that point. But what is meant by substance change is of course the terrestrial substance. I have said many times that the celestial spirit lives in the terrestrial world and in the terrestrial soul. The spirit is independent of the terrestrial soul as was shown in the Genesis account. Moses has told you that the soul was a lifeless form known as man. Then the spirit was breathed into the lifeless soul. You can't change the truth regardless how you spin the story.

The doctrine of Jesus teaches that the terrestrial soul returns to its source and the spirit returns to its source.
Now I don't know about the exhaling and inhaling thing in a celestial entity simply because common sense teaches that if flesh and blood is not allowed in the kingdom of heaven then one would have no need to inhale or exhale unless there is celestial air. Nevertheless the covering of the spirit is either terrestrial or celestial and that is the substance change that I reference.

Now think about this. You claim your existence was incarnated. You have a incarnated soul but not a incarnated spirit. You just admitted this as you said - Quote The spirit is not made up of, never was made up of any terrestrial substance. Unquote ---- So by your own admission you have only a incarnated soul (body). Not a incarnated spirit. Now when you reincarnate what reincarnates? Surly not the spirit as you have admitted to. The spirit did not incarnate and was never incarnated so how could it reincarnate? The spirit is not of the flesh or terrestrial substance is it? So it could not incarnate to begin with and it can not reincarnate.

You see the fallacy in this? Incarnate was the first step in your existence and applies only to the flesh regardless of the word play. Incarnate is that of the terrestrial flesh. It applies only to the terrestrial substance and when you say reincarnate that is a false assumption because that would mean that your first incarnated substance would have to reincarnate. In the same form? Could a female reincarnate into a male? How about a frog or a fly?

Now let me discuss this portion of your post.

MATTHEW 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead." 10 And his disciples asked him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" 11 Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptist.

Pay attention as to the doctrine of rabbinic Judaism and that of Jesus. The disciple were taught that Elijah was already incarnated and that his entire entity was taken up to heaven. Jesus taught that as at the time He said the following ---

John_3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

According to Jesus, Elijah was not taken up to the third heaven but only this second terrestrial heaven. Jesus said it. So don't blame for saying the same.

When the disciples saw Moses and Elijah together talking to Jesus on the Mt. of Transfiguration they were confused. Here Moses and Elijah were in their own image and with their own spirits. This happened after John the Baptist was believed to have been this same Elijah that the disciples just saw. Now we really are confused. Which guy is which guy? Elijah reincarnated into John so why are we looking at the first Elijah and not at John? And where is the reincarnated Moses in all of this? You do understand that these disciples had never seen Elijah before but possibly had seen John. I assume that Jesus told them who the other man was with Moses. Now wait a moment, how could that be Elijah when we don't see John?

So Jesus explained to them that this Elijah has already come. That was the guy Jesus just talked to. But just as Jesus did not restore the kingdom and must return to complete His purpose, so Elijah did not restore the order of kingdom of David but will return to restore order for the second advent of Jesus. So both Elijah and Jesus will return and Elijah will be the forerunner of Jesus in the second advent just as John was the forerunner of Jesus in the first incarnation.

Now where was Elijah all this time before Jesus called him up [not down]? Of course, he was with his friend Moses was he not? The bible did not say that Elijah was taken to the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God was not established till Jesus died. The scriptures do say that Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind of fire to heaven but then did he eventually fall from heaven and die or perhaps was cremated on the way to heaven. If he did not fall from heaven and die then are you saying that he was allowed into heaven in flesh and blood or that he never died? No, you can't say that because if he did not die then how could he be reincarnated into John the Baptist? So I guess we are trapped. He had to die to be reincarnated and that means the rabbinic doctrine is wrong. Right? You can't have it both ways. Now explain to me just how did Elijah do all of this. Explain in detail just how could Elijah have reincarnated if he did not die and then tell me that John was wrong again and that Elijah did go to the third heaven. That makes Jesus a liar would it not?

You have a lot on your plate.

a reply to: Seede

Then the spirit was breathed into the lifeless soul. You can't change the truth regardless how you spin the story.

I'm not spinning it. I just see it differently than you. You seem to keep thinking that "God" literally resuscitated Adam, brought him BACK from death. I disagree. I see the allegory of "God" breathing into Adam as the continuous flow of the "God's" spirit being "God's" breath.

The doctrine of Jesus teaches that the terrestrial soul returns to its source and the spirit returns to its source.

Jesus didn't teach any such thing.

Again:
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John_3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. According to Jesus, Elijah was not taken up to the third heaven but only this second terrestrial heaven. Jesus said it. So don't blame for saying the same.

LOL! Spin, spin, spin! Making it up as you go along.

So Jesus explained to them that this Elijah has already come. That was the guy Jesus just talked to.

No. That's no what the Bible says at all.

Again:
MATTHEW 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead." 10 And his disciples asked him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" 11 Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptist.

Now where was Elijah all this time before Jesus called him up [not down]? Of course, he was with his friend Moses was he not?

He was where ever he wanted to be.
Again:
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

a reply to: windword

I wrote - Quote" The doctrine of Jesus teaches that the terrestrial soul returns to its source and the spirit returns to its source." Unquote

And you replied with "Jesus didn't teach any such thing." ---

When a person dies the terrestrial body returns to its source which is the earth. Any physics class will teach that basic principal. It is an observable fact. You will one day return to your terrestrial compounds. Now if that is the case then how can a spirit (consciousness) exist if it is as you postulate as being an allegory?

Your Quote "I see the allegory of "God" breathing into Adam as the continuous flow of the "God's" spirit being "God's breath.
Unquote ----------------

I agree in part of what you have said in that God's Spirit is His breath. God is total Spirit and His creation cannot understand Him without His bringing forth His image which is His Word. But that is not an allegory and you are inconsistent in your posts.

You stated in your above post that -- Quote "The spirit is not made up of, never was made up of any terrestrial substance. The spiritual is not OF this world. The spirit/soul is the very breath of "God", forever exhaling and inhaling." Unquote

So in one post you say that the spirit is a separate portion of man and now you say the spirit is an allegory and one continuous part of man. Whatever that can mean.

Jesus teaches that the terrestrial body will die once and the spirit will be judged. If righteous the spirit will then resurrect to the kingdom of heaven and be given a new celestial body which will then cover the resurrected spirit. In order to do this you must have two distinct portions of procreation. As a man dies the body was put into a containment for about a year and the flesh and blood would return to the earthly elements. The bones would be cleansed and stored in various manners. That is an observable fact. Now where is the consciousness of that body? Does it still exist in spirit? If you believe it does not exist and was destroyed then so be it and then there would no need for a heavenly kingdom or a hell.

If you believe that this breath or spirit returns to the Creator and is reincarnated into another physical body then you must also believe there is no hell or punishment of the spirit. That would negate the doctrine of the Christ Jesus. So that is why reincarnation cannot be part of the teachings of Jesus or the teachings of the Genesis account.

In lite of this then Elijah had to die the physical death and his spirit return to the Creator and then that same spirit given to another incarnate John. Now if that happened then Jesus' doctrine is wrong and the rabbinical doctrine is also wrong. You understand that the rabbinical doctrine postulates that the physical body dies, just as we discussed, but the spirit of that body goes to Sheol and is judged in Sheol as to which chamber it will be contained in.

Jesus was the first in His era to teach a kingdom of heaven. Prior to this teaching of Jesus, some Jews believed that collectively a person was interred in Sheol till the resurrection day. Other Jews had no belief in any sort of afterlife
so we are discussing mostly the Pharissee's who were the minority of the sects between them and the Sadducees. Now the spirit had to be separated simply because the body eventually wound up in a bone box. So in that respect there were still two portions of a procreated human and both rabbinic and Nazarene philosophy agree on that one point.

a reply to: Seede

When a person dies the terrestrial body returns to its source which is the earth. Any physics class will teach that basic principal. It is an observable fact. You will one day return to your terrestrial compounds. Now if that is the case then how can a spirit (consciousness) exist if it is as you postulate as being an allegory?

That is not the case. "A person" is NOT their body. Their body is a a borrowed vehicle. It's temporary. "A person" doesn't return to the earth, their body does.

I agree in part of what you have said in that God's Spirit is His breath. God is total Spirit and His creation cannot understand Him without His bringing forth His image which is His Word. But that is not an allegory and you are inconsistent in your posts.

Of course it's allegorical! Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden aren't real. They're allegorical myths meant to convey a spiritual philosophy. Breath. like life is circular system, inhale/exhale, birth/rebirth. Just because the wind isn't blowing where you happen to be standing at the moment doesn't mean the wind is dead.

So in one post you say that the spirit is a separate portion of man and now you say the spirit is an allegory and one continuous part of man. Whatever that can mean.

We are all spiritual beings having a physical experience.

Jesus teaches that the terrestrial body will die once and the spirit will be judged.

Nope.

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

If you believe that this breath or spirit returns to the Creator and is reincarnated into another physical body then you must also believe there is no hell or punishment of the spirit. That would negate the doctrine of the Christ Jesus.

No it doesn't. It negate the doctrine of Paul.

In lite of this then Elijah had to die the physical death and his spirit return to the Creator and then that same spirit given to another incarnate John.

Unless Elijah had some special space suit on, his body burned up in that chariot of fire. Baptism by fire....

Jesus was the first in His era to teach a kingdom of heaven. Prior to this teaching of Jesus, some Jews believed that collectively a person was interred in Sheol till the resurrection day.

That's just not true.

Hosea 6:1
Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. 2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.