Corporatism/Corporate state vs Fascism

Sorry if this is already been posted around here but I was thinking today.

People in the alternative research community keep getting corporatism and fascism mixed up and its kind of annoying. They are not the same thing.
Corporatism is when the nation state is weak and the corporations dictate policy.
Fascism is where the nation state is strong and controls the actions of the corporations and banks.

Just because they both have authoritarian aspects doesn't mean they are the same thing. Like all the idiots saying we are living in a fascist police state. We aren't. We are living in a corporate state.

Discuss?

a reply to: chris_stibrany

The term "Corporatocracy" could help illustrate this scenario for you:

If American life were a sporting event - today's game would be one in which all the officials and the referees had all been pre-purchased by what would obviously be the winning team.

www.rense.com...

a reply to: chris_stibrany
That's a pretty essay, which I have read already, but just because Mussolini says something in a quote doesn't mean it's true. They are not the same ideology. For example, in Mussolini's own Italy although they had a Chamber of Fasci and Corporations , the corporation delegates were under orders from government officials, hence, under the nation state. These candidates were picked by the National Fascist Party, further cementing government control over corporations.

a reply to: chris_stibrany

That essay is not something written by Mussolini... it just had a quote of his at the top of it. Did you actually read it, or the quote I included from it? It does a pretty good job of showing how we are living in a "rigged" system.


Have you heard of the book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman"? It helps explain how corporations in conjunction with the government have effectively enslaved other countries' economies in debt, with promises of "new and improved" Dam systems, electricity, plumbing, etc. etc.

The author, John Perkins says he was once an "Economic Hitman", working for a "private company" on paper, but it was really a front for U.S. intelligence agencies.

If you look into it corporatism and facism are completely different. Mussolini essentially engineered a govt coupe that consolidated corporations to govt management and ownership. It reminds me of communism, he just did it with a different spin on it.

Once again yes I read the essay, and I have also read the book you mention. However I fail to see how the book is a reflection of fascism, but I see it rather more of q reflection of corporatism.

The similarity and difference between the two ideologies is what I wanted people to discuss, not merely pick on the US or on corporatism in particular. Because as this thread is already showing, people keep conflating the two.

Thank you for your contribution!

a reply to: FamCore

Exactly!
I am just trying to find out why people keep confusing the two.
a reply to: avgguy

originally posted by: chris_stibrany
a reply to: chris_stibrany
That's a pretty essay, which I have read already, but just because Mussolini says something in a quote doesn't mean it's true. They are not the same ideology. For example, in Mussolini's own Italy although they had a Chamber of Fasci and Corporations , the corporation delegates were under orders from government officials, hence, under the nation state. These candidates were picked by the National Fascist Party, further cementing government control over corporations.

Corporations are not democracies, they are fascist or dictatorships. The government IS a corporation. It appears the point of your thread is simply nitpicking. BTW, Mussolini did coin the term coprotocracy in being in-line with active fascism, it doesn't really matter who controls the country, the corporations or the politicians handlers so you are splitting hairs. Trying to redefine ideologies I guess is somewhat like naming Marxism after Mother Theresa, or the Hegelian Dielectic after Dr. Suess.

Cheers - Dave

originally posted by: FamCore
a reply to: chris_stibrany

That essay is not something written by Mussolini... it just had a quote of his at the top of it. Did you actually read it, or the quote I included from it? It does a pretty good job of showing how we are living in a "rigged" system.


Have you heard of the book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman"? It helps explain how corporations in conjunction with the government have effectively enslaved other countries' economies in debt, with promises of "new and improved" Dam systems, electricity, plumbing, etc. etc.

The author, John Perkins says he was once an "Economic Hitman", working for a "private company" on paper, but it was really a front for U.S. intelligence agencies.

furthermore just bc 'intelligence agencies' were behind the scenes in these overseas deals, doesn't mean that Corporate money does not control their agenda to a sickening degree. Through their bosses pockets. That's corporatism, not fascism.

I have yet to see the US government being truly nationalistic about anything in the last ... sixty plus years.

Okay, we're living in a corporate police state.

Dave, this is not about splitting hairs, it is about getting people to realise they are two separate systems, so that we can not just use terms properly to have a proper discussion, but also so that we learn on how we can fix the US.

In a fascist country the whole point is the nation state, and people in the government are NOT bought by corporations ,because the corporation are reigned in with government control. I don't see how this is nitpicking.

when you say 'it doesn't really matter who controls the country, the corporations or the politicians handlers ' I have to disagree whole-heartedly with the first half of that statement, it matters who controls the country; and you do realise that in your example the 'politicians handlers' ARE the corporations nowadays?

The underlying point of this thread is not just to find out why people conflate the two ideologies, but also to learn that from corporatism we can learn how important it is not to let the almighty dollar and pursuit of wealth ruin our countries.

From fascism we can learn that nationalism is important in cementing and unifying a country to give them a common purpose and create infrastructure, but that it also can run amok in ways we have been discussing for decades.

a reply to: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
Okay, we're living in a corporate police state.

Star Just wondering why people don't take time to think about the terms they use. And more importantly very curious what links the two ideologies if anything at all...

If corporations (manufacture power) take over the political power or political power take over manufacture power do not matter since it ends in the same result.

Political power and manufacture power in the hands of a few controlling everyone else and enslave them to the system they create.

Benito Mussolini own quote of fascism.
“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.”

This thread is pure white washing.

The terms are interchangeable.

Both terms imply the merger of corporation and state, most individuals in high office go on to become upper management in corporations and vice versa.

You are essentially saying, the state and the corporation are separate groups, when both groups intermingle their positions.

I believe it's called the revolving door. Look at Michael Taylor, ex-Monsanto executive, went on as director of FDA.

There is no distinction between the terms in this age.

originally posted by: chris_stibrany

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
Okay, we're living in a corporate police state.

Star

Just wondering why people don't take time to think about the terms they use. And more importantly very curious what links the two ideologies if anything at all...

It's plain and simple, the Police.

Control is a precious thing and the mass media has it, the bankers have it,religion has it, it's safer to declare who doesn't.

This is not an attempt to white-wash, so much as an attempt to differentiate.

In regards to the revolving door, that is true; but it is more true in a corporation than in a fascist state.

I just think we as a capitalist world (largely) need more government control over our corporations, and that these same people that are in revolving door positions need to be punished by our government, who should be doing it's job of enforcement of rules, and not looking the other way and taking corporate bribes.

So I don't think the terms are interchangeable, that is what CEO's and champions of PC would want you to think. Don''t you think? Don't get me wrong, I don't view myself as a hardcore follower of any particular political system, I am just trying to point out flaws in people's reasoning and how it is stopping us from making any change.

a reply to: chris_stibrany

The only difference is how much better tools the controllers have. A spade is a spade. Using different words to try to beautify something is just advertisement.

originally posted by: chris_stibrany
Dave, this is not about splitting hairs, it is about getting people to realise they are two separate systems, so that we can not just use terms properly to have a proper discussion, but also so that we learn on how we can fix the US.

In a fascist country the whole point is the nation state, and people in the government are NOT bought by corporations ,because the corporation are reigned in with government control. I don't see how this is nitpicking.

when you say 'it doesn't really matter who controls the country, the corporations or the politicians handlers ' I have to disagree whole-heartedly with the first half of that statement, it matters who controls the country; and you do realise that in your example the 'politicians handlers' ARE the corporations nowadays?

The underlying point of this thread is not just to find out why people conflate the two ideologies, but also to learn that from corporatism we can learn how important it is not to let the almighty dollar and pursuit of wealth ruin our countries.

From fascism we can learn that nationalism is important in cementing and unifying a country to give them a common purpose and create infrastructure, but that it also can run amok in ways we have been discussing for decades.

a reply to: bobs_uruncle

Whether the corporations or the goverment have rhe appearance of being the fascisti, it matters not. Both are working together towards their ultimate goal of serfs and lords. BTW, we are the serfs...

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: chris_stibrany

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
You know, I haven't posted a reply on this site in a long time, but after seeing this thread, I just had to answer. This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, so apologies if anything here seems a little pedantic. You are all confusing the term Corporatism and the term Corporatocracy. Wikipedia has two articles that do a pretty good job of explaining what both systems entail, but as a tl:dr, Corporatism is a system wherein society and the economy are organized along the lines of interest groups, i.e. in a Corporatist system there is one state supported cartel that controls an entire industry, with the cartel being made up of a mixture of government, labor, and private ownership that sets economic policy for the entire industry. In a corporatist system, private capital is allowed, but it is subordinated to the state. Corporatism was the official ideology of Fascist Italy, but it is worth mentioning that the term itself has literally nothing to do with the term corporation, instead both words share the same Latin root, Corpora, which means body. A Corporatocracy is a system in which private corporations have an undue influence over the business of the state, and that is the system I think you are all trying to describe. I hope I was of some assistance clearing any of the up for you guys.

I thank you all for your responses and I want to delve deeper into this on the morrow.