Times LDEO collapse seismogram of WTC-7, compared to the by NIST time-stamped Cianca 9/11 photo

a reply to: Informer1958

I support the Purdue University. University of Edinburgh models.

a reply to: samkent

Be careful about calling others work 'yellow journalism''.

Yellow journalism is Yellow journalism when it is proven. It was proven Popular Mechanics lied. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Debunking Popular Mechanics' 9/11 Lies

Nepotism, bias, shoddy research and agenda-driven politics

Popular Mechanics has re-entered the media circus in an attempt to continue its 9/11 debunking campaign that began in March of last year. A new book claims to expose the myths of the 9/11 truth movement, yet it is Popular Mechanics who have been exposed as promulgating falsehoods while engaging in nepotism, shoddy research and agenda-driven politics.

It comes as no surprise that Popular Mechanics is owned by Hearst Corporation. As fictionalized in Orson Welles' acclaimed film Citizen Kane, William Randolph Hearst wrote the book on cronyism and yellow journalism and Popular Mechanics hasn't bucked that tradition.

The magazine is a cheerleader for the sophistication of advanced weaponry and new technology used by police in areas such as crowd control and 'anti-terror' operation. A hefty chunk of its advertising revenue relies on the military and defense contractors. Since the invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq and in the future Iran all cite 9/11 as a pretext, what motivation does the magazine have to conduct a balanced investigation and risk upsetting its most coveted clientele?

Popular Mechanics' March 2005 front cover story was entitled 'Debunking 9/11 Lies' and has since become the bellwether reference point for all proponents of the official 9/11 fairy-tale.

Following the publication of the article and its exaltation by the mainstream media as the final nail in the coffin for 9/11 conspiracy theories, it was revealed that senior researcher on the piece Benjamin Chertoff is the cousin of Michael Chertoff, Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security.

www.lookingglassnews.org...

Who would have ever known that Popular Mechanics has political ties going all the way to Department of Homeland Security? No one would have known until other journalist had uncovered the connection.

Because of Popular Mechanics criminal stunt, I always take what they write with the same credibility as the National Enquirer.

a reply to: Informer1958

Then you should talk about Steve Jones credibility......

a reply to: neutronflux

Then you should talk about Steve Jones credibility......

What does Jones have to do with with the OP?

a reply to: Informer1958

Steve Jones is what ever yellow journalism is and his Thermite hoax. By definition two or three groups of truthers are yellow journalists. If it was demolitions explosives, then the Thermite, Nuke bomb, energy wave, jet hologramers are yellow journalists. If the Thermite is true, then we'll you get the idea. I'm sorry you cannot face fire is the most likely and plausible cause of the collapse of the buildings at WTC. By the way. Steve Jones was caught submitting doctored photos as proof of molten metal at the WTC. And popular mechanics are criminals? Remember the criminal government and NIST run those atomic clocks.....

a reply to: Informer1958

In other words, it wasn't a nuke conventional explosive Thermite energy wave holographic collapse of the WTCs. So at least statistically three out of the four groups are hoaxes.. I'll stick with the Purdue, Edinburgh models....

You also have the exploding ceiling title guy, molten metal believers, melted steel, Thermite paint, and laser beam pushers. Truther eyewitnesses accounts that change and become more elaborate with time. The people died of radiation faction. By the way, do you know why smoking is so bad. The tabbaco picks up radioactive isotopes out of the soil. When smoked, the radioactive isotopes emit I think alphas right into a person's lungs. How is that for radiation sickness.....

a reply to: neutronflux

Steve Jones is what ever yellow journalism is and his Thermite hoax.

That is your "opinion".

The topic of Steven Jones has nothing to do with the OP.

Steve Jones was caught submitting doctored photos as proof of molten metal at the WTC.

I have never seen any evidence of your claim anywhere, but on 911 Myth, and real researcher stay away from that site because of their Yellow Journalism and bias "opinions" in supporting the official narratives of 911.

Now back on topic.

Did you read the NIST Report NCSTAR 1-5A yet?

a reply to: Informer1958

Uncomfortable? Even if one truther hypothesis is right, the rest of truthers are pushing their own yellow journalism to push their wrong hypothesis? Practicing what you claim popular mechanics, skeptic magazine, and all the major engineering societie are guilty of. It does seem very hypocritical? I like to say"oh my, which truthers has the truth.". Because the rest are lies.

The other thing I don't understand about seismology. It takes time to travel through the earth's crust. Lag time from event to seismographs. The frequency of the wave traveling through the earth's crust determines when it reaches a recording device. Seismic activity of different frequencies will travel at different speeds and reach a seismograph at different times from the same point. Amplitude and energy of seismic activity determines frequency.

Also seismic wave volcities are also effect by the density and elasticity of the earth they travel through. Clay vs rock vs sand. Lots of factors to why there might be a two second window. I can easily see how seismology finds the centure of an earthquake and the time for a large event. But not knowing what is causing the seismic activity, lag time to get to the seismograph, what different seismic frequencies were generated, and not having a detailed analysis of the composition of earth to determine how it will effect volcity for a correction factor between the time stamps makes a two second difference possible. Bottom line, lots of calculating to determine the correction factor to when it was seen until it would reach a seismograph in relation to time.

""neutronflux : Bottom line, lots of calculating to determine the correction factor to when it was seen until it would reach a seismograph in relation to time. ""

NO.

The seismologists at LDEO know the propagation speeds from Manhattan through the upper crust of NY State to the thousands of a second part.
They had seismometers in Manhattan up to half a year before 9/11, they were removed for some unclear reason.
Thus, they had thousands of seismograms from earthquakes but also the usual explosive building and road works to depend on for their database data from Manhattan, New York.
That's suspicion nr 1.

Next, every scientist in every geophysics department on earth knows that seismic waves propagation speeds are measured at far more precise speeds than Kim and Lerner Lam tried to push to the uninformed public in the early days after 9/11.
That's suspicion nr 2 which triggered my attention to the 9/11 seismograms.

The WTC-EXPLOSIONS chapter at www.ISGP.nl :

www.isgp.nl...

This is a well known European geophysicist, a.k.a. a seismologist, with 40 career years of experience with the propagation of acoustic waves, also known as seismic waves :

www.journalof911studies.com...

page 1/23 : ABSTRACT
The seismic signals propagating from New York on September 11, 2001, recorded at Palisades (34 km) and published by the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory of Columbia University (LDEO), have here been subjected to a new critical study concerning their sources. The aim of this paper is to demonstrate that the nature of the waves, their velocities, frequencies, and magnitudes invalidate the official explanations which imply as sources the percussion of the twin towers by planes and the collapses of the three buildings, WTC1, WTC2 and WTC7.

First of all, we show the contradictions in the official explanation between the seismic data and the timing of the events. Then we point out that it is strange that identical events (percussion of identical towers on the one hand, and collapses of identical towers on the other hand) at the same location would have generated seismic sources of different magnitudes. We demonstrate that only strong explosives could be the cause of such seismic waves, in accordance with the observed low frequencies.
According to the nature of the recorded waves (body and surface waves), we can propose
a location of each explosive source. According to the presence of shear waves or the
presence of Rayleigh waves only, we hypothesize a subterranean or a subaerial explosion.
The magnitude of an aerial explosion is insufficient to provide seismic waves at 34 km.

The witnesses and video observation confirm our conclusions of subaerial explosions close to the times of aircraft impacts on WTC1 and WTC2, a strong subterranean explosion closely correlated with the WTC1 collapse, and subaerial explosions closely correlated with the WTC2 and WTC7 collapses, WTC7 not having been hit by a plane. As a consequence, we draw the conclusion that the three buildings were demolished by a controlled process.

(1) Dr. Rousseau is a former researcher in geophysics and geology at the National Center
for Scientific Research (CNRS) of France and a specialist in acoustic waves.
He is also a member of Scientists for 9/11 Truth.

Dr. Rousseau has read my 2005/6/7 thesis, and so has Dr MacQueen in 2009.

page 2/23 : INTRODUCTION
Some authors have been puzzled in their analysis of signals recorded for the events at the
World Trade Center, as the contradictions are significant. They are particularly intrigued by the presence of seismic "peaks" before the collapses. (See MacQueen, 2009). This text focuses on the study of the seismic signals from Palisades. The new interpretation
presented here renders the assertions of the seismic analysis of the events at the WTC, as
presented by the government in the NIST and other reports, null and void. On the contrary, all the documented evidence points to explosions as the source of the recorded seismic signals.

Now, thanks to the above question by "neutronflux", we can try to deduct what the normal precision of propagation speeds are in seismograms.

I understand new members do not yet have the time and/patience (or simply willingness) to read my years-long posts on the seismic subject in this forum, otherwise he would have found an example posted by me through the ATS Search function, based on the African US-consulate bombing in Nairobi , where the waves propagation speeds were calculated with a precision of 3 decimals behind the full seconds comma.

In his case, it seems he can't bring himself to READ my offered links and explanations, he wants his worldview to be kept non-shattered. This discussion with him will not lead to acceptance of well-known physical evidence by him, he's still a rock-solid believer of the official fairytales, which is his constitutional right.
Perhaps this will be read and sink in :

page 3/23 : Determination of the Timing of the Signals' Origins

Normally in this type of study the time of origin is known with great precision (to the millisecond), which is necessary in order to calculate the propagation speed of the different waves.
Unfortunately, that precision is not possible for the events at the WTC. In this case, timing of the waves must be correlated, as well as possible utilizing video evidence.

--I snipped a chunk of IMPORTANT text, READ that text also--

Finally, the enormous indeterminacy of 2 seconds in the calculations attempting to fix the time of origin of each of the signals, admitted by the LDEO authors themselves (Kim et al., 2001), oblige us to view the official conclusions critically.

Now that you hear it from a renowned life long European seismologist, who can't be put under pressure by US influence anymore, you can't circle around or avoid the meat of the matter any more.

Please stop those ridiculous posts about GPS and/or atomic clock standardized precision recording equipment on 9/11/2001. Most planes had no GPS that time.
I myself, nor NIST, ever said that the cameras had atomic clocks or were steered by such clocks, your lack of proper education in the field of physics-wide subjects is showing.

Even when the whole NIST research team TELLS you in very clear to understand words in their NCSTAR 1-5A WTC Report where they based their video and photo time-stamping methods on, you keep repeating yourself in numerous posts, and you keep trying to place your own posted ridiculous words, regarding the context of this thread, about GPS and atomic clock precision CAMERAS, as originating from my keyboard.

You must stop such disputable online behavior, its against the harsh posting rules here.

Now the following conclusions are INDEED part of the meat of the seismic matter :

page 3 and 4/23 :
A more serious difficulty with LDEO's attribution of the waveforms to plane impacts at the Twin Towers is that even if the impacts had been considerably more energetic, these signals could not have been generated by such impacts. The actual waves generated by the crashes had to have been deadened before hitting the ground.

Frequencies of waves generated by explosions are on the order of 1 Hertz (1 Hz, or one cycle per second)
--
which is the case with the Rayleigh waves shown in figures 1a and 1b (LT : the two plane impacts)
--
while those of crash impacts are above 10 Hz and are often around 100 Hz.

Furthermore, the range of the recording instruments cited (0.6-5 Hz) does not allow for the recording of the high-frequency waves that would be created by plane impacts.

As to the theory of the oscillation of the Towers to explain these signals, as defended by Irvine (2001), it is inadequate because in such a case we would have had a "square" signal of long duration and a constant amplitude, while in actuality we observe a "bell-like" signal, representing a strong and brief explosion, which is particularly evident in the case of WTC2.

Given that it is geophysically impossible to have two different propagation speeds for two waves of the same type at the same frequency traveling the same path only a few
minutes apart, one must bow to the evidence that the supposed origins of the recorded
waves are incorrect, and that they are not linked to the plane crashes but to another origin.

The waveform data, far from suggesting the conclusion of LDEO that they were caused by plane impacts into the Towers, suggest instead two explosions with different time displacements separated from the moments of plane impact at each building. Further, the difference in the magnitude of the two signals can only be linked to differences in the volume of explosives and/or their distance from the surface.

Dr. Rousseau : ""Also note that the duration of a seismic signal does not tell anything about the source, in distinction from the amplitude and, particularly, the frequency.""

Reference :
Brown, A.R. 1999: Interpretation of three-dimensional seismic data, 5th edition. AAPG Memoir 42, Tulsa, Oklahoma, pp. 514.
Which is then in 1995 Dr. Brown, now Prof. Brown, who refused to sign the explanation his colleagues from Oklahoma University had come up with, after he recorded two seismic peaks, 10 secs from each other, in the OKC bombing by McVeigh et al.

He was also the originator of the IMPORTANT discovery for every bombing discussion, that EVERY explosive charge that was set off during the controlled demolition of the 3/4 remains of the OKC Murrah building, showed up on his nearby recording, handheld seismographs, as MUCH more energetic (higher) peaks than the energy of the impact of the huge chunks of concrete on the ground showed up on those by him produced seismograms.

And that's why the seismographs in Palisades, at the Columbia University LDEO geophysics institute still recorded those huge peaks on 9/11/2001, after having traveled 34 km in 17 seconds.

These are the seismograms of the two plane impacts.
The first plane hit the North Tower at 08:46:26 EST between the 94th and the 98th floor.
The second plane hit the South Tower at 09:02:54 between the 77th and the 85th floor.

3.
files.abovetopsecret.com...
4.
files.abovetopsecret.com...

Irvine (2001), thought he was right about his idea, that the oscillation of the towers after plane impact would be the cause of the recorded low frequency seismic waves of between 0.6 up to 5 Hz we see in both above plane impact seismograms.
Instead of the 10 to 100 Hz frequencies as expected normally, based on registrations of other sorts of fast moving objects that hit high structures, like canon shells, small planes, heavy 500 pounds Nazi bombs, V-1 and V-2's in WWII and later experienced in experiments performed by military and geophysicists.
The first impact, which hit dead center and much higher than the second impact which hit off center and much lower, shows us the stronger amplitudes (vertical needle-swing widths) and much longer duration of those amplitudes.
The second impact that strafed the east side of the South Tower and hit lower, was recorded as the softest and shortest amplitude event.

Dr. Rousseau :
Irvine's explanation is inadequate because in such a case we would have had a "square" signal of long duration and a constant amplitude, while in actuality we observe a "bell-like" signal, representing a strong and brief explosion, which is particularly evident in the case of WTC2.

Seismic Time–Frequency Analysis via Empirical Wavelet Transform. Nov 09, 2015.

IV. CONCLUSION
In this letter, we have proposed a novel seismic time–frequency analysis approach using the EWT. The EWT approach first estimates the frequency components and then adapts the scaling function and wavelets based on the detected boundaries to decompose the signal. No prior information regarding the signal is required in this decomposition process, and thus, EWT can be a fully adaptive approach for conveniently analyzing the time–frequency information of seismic data. The EWT-based instantaneous frequency spectra can produce much sparser representation and much higher time–frequency resolution than the traditional CWT approach. We demonstrate the superior performance of the EWT approach in better depicting the stratigraphic features (such as the thin beds) and structural features (such as the faults) over the traditional CWT approach using synthetic, 2-D, and 3-D real data examples.

Seismic Time–Frequency Analysis via Empirical Wavelet Transform (PDF Download Available). Available from: www.researchgate.net... [accessed May 25, 2016].

Four anonymous reviewers.....

Those of you, genuinely interested in the seismic subject of 9/11 should study this publication and then discuss their finds with me :

Seismic resolution (and frequency filtering)
By Bjarne Rafaelsen, University of Tromsø :
folk.uio.no...

Scientists for 9/11 Truth
www.scientistsfor911truth.org...

Science professionals seeking new and independent investigations into the attacks of September 11, 2001.

www.scientistsfor911truth.org...
André Rousseau, Geophysics, Geology, State Doctor, Faculty of Sciences, Paris
Also you can click on his name in the "Signatories by Field" at the right column beside the long list.

a reply to: LaBTop

Then publish a paper and have it peered reviewed. Why waste your time here. Still don't understand if this is your work or you took someone else's work. You are able to do the the calculations for the leg time from event to when it should be recorded? You already have 50 percent error built into you calculations. Simple paragraph that does not need endless paragraphs. I know seismologists can do it. And I think Thermite guy Steve Jones has a PHD, but was still caught Photoshopping evidence, unethical peer review, and is a hoax. Longer the posts, less believeable you are.

a reply to: LaBTop

Bottom line, no recorded detonations of explosives at the WTC. No metallurgy evidence the columns were worked on by explosions or thermite. No explosive fragments found to shape blasts. No evidenc of columns drilled for explosives. no remains of a detonation system or blasting caps. They are a hoax, but how does this fit with Thermite or energy waves. Does your work disprove their hypothesis.