Noahic Curse: "Japheth dwells in the tents of Shem"

Your Egyptian material comes from old (1800's) sources that are outdated and known to be incorrect.

Joseph, 11th son of Israel, was sold into slavery by his jealous brothers. He found himself enslaved in the land of Egypt, and through a streak of good fortune, later became the vizier and advisor of Pharaoh.

This tale is actually not plausible. Egypt had TWO viziers - not one - during these time periods (Vizier of the North and Vizier of the South) - well known figures. And the Jews were never enslaved by Egypt.

(Could it be possible that Joseph's ascent to power has some historic correlation with the Hyksos rule over Egypt?)

No. The Viziers of that time period are well known.

(Egyptologist and author, Ahmed Osman, has theorized that Joseph may be the Egyptian courtier Yuyah (Yu-Sef of Yahweh).

His claim is not substantiated. Yuya doesn't seem to have embraced any monotheistic religion, and the number and names of his children don't match. It's known that he was a merchant and was born in an Egyptian city in Upper Egypt near Nubia (so he was possibly Nubian to some degree).

Also - Atenism is not very much like Judaism and Akhenaten (who had a "brute squad" that went around enforcing his brand of monotheism) isn't Moses (his parentage is well known and I believe it's been confirmed by DNA.)

(Could it be possible that the migration of Israel (Jacob) and his sons into Egypt correlates with the historic Shasu?)

Check some other sources. The word is associated with another word for "land" - interpret that as "the nation-state of Shasu" rather than "a group of wandering people".

After the deaths of Israel, Joseph, and his brothers, a succeeding Pharaoh began to fear for his authority and the Egyptian status quo, as the descendants of Israel became exceedingly fruitful. Through the fear and apprehension of a strengthening minority, the Egyptians decided to enslave the Hebrews

Egyptians took war captives as slaves but did not enslave neighboring nations - pharaoh had no need of slaves (prone to revolt, lots of mouths to feed) when he was a feudal lord over a nation of vassals. Conquered nations were put under a client-kingship system instead (which was more efficient and less likely to result in outright revolt.) Criminals were also enslaved.

(Could the enslavement of the Hebrew-Israelites by the Egyptians have a historic basis in the bondage of the Shasu or Habiru?) ?

The Egyptians enslaved SOME Shasuite war captives but not the land.

...and by the way, there's NO evidence of the Hebrews being in Egypt in any great numbers until around the time of the Ptolemies (300 BC or about 800 years after the events you are mentioning.)

Enslavement, oppression, and male infanticide befell the Hebrew-Israelites by the hand of Pharaoh.

Infanticide was against the laws of Egypt (even their social norms (the law of Ma'at, as shown in the Book of the Dead) specifically mentions not committing murder. They would not have murdered the babies of any slave (those who did would have been punished.) They loved their children; such things were unthinkable to them.

To other cultures that practiced child sacrifice this would have been plausible. Egypt... no.

¿ (Could the defeat of the Hyksos and their expulsion from Egypt serve as the basis of the Hebrew-Israelite Exodus?) ?

The more we learn about the Hyksos, the less plausible the idea becomes. The initial "invasion" simply seems to be a bunch of immigrants moving into Egypt. Now... they (or someone) DID devastate the Levant about that time, but invading raiders aren't likely to be slave subjects. The actions against the Hyksos (the Egyptians identified nine different nations or tribes as Hyksos) are not very similar to the Moses story.

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: the2ofusr1

Holy cow! 0_0
Although I am a student of comparative religion, that last lecture by Michael Hoffman has shaken my understandings..

Realize also that he DOES HAVE an agenda (promoting his culture and religion) and is not unbiased. You should also read further on these topics and do some research in the original language AND look at the original documents. In cases where they are only attested but none of any great age (1500 years plus) survive, take claims such as Hoffman makes with a grain of salt.

Found this ....

a reply to: Byrd

Greetings Byrd! Thank you for joining the discussion.

The section of the op that you singled-in on (Hebrew-Israelites in Egypt, Habairu, Shasu, and Hyksos) was presented in a non-definitive way, as illustrated by the asides and questions. We are seeking to find archeological and historic correlations, relationships, and instances that may have served as the possible inspirations, or loosely-based inspirations, of the Egyptian Captivity narrative found in the Bible. We are not "proving" the Biblical narrative or holding it as fundamental, but instead, we are investigating potential historic "patch-work" inspirations for the Biblical narrative.

there's NO evidence of the Hebrews being in Egypt in any great numbers until around the time of the Ptolemies (300 BC or about 800 years after the events you are mentioning.)

The academically viewed origin of both the Hebrew and Hyksos People is enigmatic, but it is commonly said that they both were an ancient Semitic People of Canaan, Palestine, and the Levant. And regarding the Israelites in particular, it is academically held that they emerged endogenously from the People of the Land of Canaan / Palestine.

You mentioned the year 300 BC and the Ptolemaic Dynasty. By highlighting this era, I assume that you are alluding to the works of Manetho?

According to Manetho, Salitis founded the Hyksos 15th Dynasty of Egypt sometime between 1650-1640 B.C.E. These were a Semetic People from the East who held the Assyrians as enemies among their Eastern-border. The Hittites were known and attested to, so once again, this points to a People from Canaan/Palestine.

Furthermore, archeological inscriptions of Hyksos King Sakir-Har have been found, along with tangible and documented evidence of the succeeding Hyksos rulers.

"Tutimaeus. In his reign, for what cause I know not, a blast of God smote us; and unexpectedly, from the regions of the East, invaders of obscure race marched in confidence of victory against our land. By main force they easily overpowered the rulers of the land, they then burned our cities ruthlessly, razed to the ground the temples of the gods, and treated all the natives with a cruel hostility, massacring some and leading into slavery the wives and children of others. Finally, they appointed as king one of their number whose name was Salitis. He had his seat at Memphis, levying tribute from Upper and Lower Egypt, and leaving garrisons behind in the most advantageous positions. Above all, he fortified the district to the east, foreseeing that the Assyrians, as they grew stronger, would one day covet and attack his kingdom."

- Manetho, Aegyptiaca., frag. 42, 1.75-79.2

Manetho and Josephus on the Hyksos

Egypt had TWO viziers - not one - during these time periods (Vizier of the North and Vizier of the South)

Major and minor Hyksos rule spanned from both Lower and Upper Egypt:

Avaris the Hyksos 15th dynasty ruled most of Lower Egypt and the Nile valley as far south as Cusae (near present-day Asyūṭ). The contemporaneous 16th-dynasty rulers—minor Hyksos kings who ruled in Upper Egyptsimultaneously with those of the 15th dynasty—were probably vassals of the latter group.

Hyksos Egyptian Dynasty, Encyclopedia Brittanica

the Jews were never enslaved by Egypt.

Precisely! Because the Jewish ethnoreligious group did not arise until after the formation of the "Kingdom of Judah".

On the other hand, before the United Monarchy; Kingdom of Israel, many indigenous Levantines did in fact experience some degree of Egyptian enslavement, be it military or political POWs, etc.

You should also read further on these topics and do some research in the original language AND look at the original documents.

I believe that looking for patch-work influences on the historic narrative in the Bible is completely valid, because when we study the Hebrew lexicon of the Tanakh and works from the Qumran Scrolls, we find clear and obvious parallels to a patch-work borrowing from the ancient religions of the Mediterranean, Levant, and Fertile Crescent, Canaanite and Mesopotamian in particular. This is a whole 'nother topic in and of itself.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

In researching for this thread, I did come across some instances of groups and individuals using the Noahic Curse as justification for the enslavement of, and racism, prejudice, and apathy towards Africans. However, I was unfamiliar with such racism to be found within the Talmud and Rabbinical Judaism. Thanks for another great share.

As far as the true culprits of the African Slave Trade, the answer may be more obtuse than precise. On one level, Talmudic and Judeo-Christian theology may have helped to cultivate the sub-human view of Africans amongst Europeans, however, Africans themselves freely participated in the African Slave Trade. Arabs and Muslims also helped to bolster the profitability of the African Slave Trade.

a reply to: Sahabi

I am not sure if you have gone through Martins book or not .(the people history forgot) There are some interesting info historically showing the trail of slavery . Not saying a Dot you are looking for is there but there may be some crumbs .

The Joseph/Hebrews in Egypt ......There is a YT vid I want to track down as it has a very interesting date .It comes from a dig that found what could have been Joseph s tomb . The dig also found good evidence for the first borne death plague . I will try and find it .

a reply to: Sahabi

K this is the rabbit trail you need to take in order to make the date correct . In #3 of the series lecture Rohl mentions the curse that may be a part of your OP Its around the 2:30 mark

originally posted by: Sahabi
¡ (It is my opinion that the Noahic migration began somewhere in NorthEastern Africa, the Levant, or the Fertile Crescent during the late-Pleistocene to early-Holocene eras of glacial retreat.

It is not my opinion that Noah's family and descendants were the only humans on Earth, rather, they migrated into previously settled regions and significantly impacted the indigenous natives through assimilation, conquest, and/or displacement. The indigenous natives included different species of man, along with isolated societies of ancient migratory Homo Sapiens Sapiens.) !

Japheth, son of Noah, is believed to have been associated with the Proto-Indo-Europeans and Indo-Europeans. Japheth's eldest son, Gomer, traversed the northern Mediterranean and Galatia, becoming the patriarch of the Gauls, Cimmerians, and Cimbri people. Gomer begat three sons; Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah.

Ashkenaz is associated with the Scythians, Sarmatians, Rheginians, and later placed in Rhineland and Greater Germania.

Riphath is equated with the Paphlagonians, associated with the Riphean Mountains, and mentioned as the father of the Celts of Central and Western Europe.

August Wilhelm Knobel proposed that Riphath begat the Celtic peoples, who according to Plutarch had crossed from the Riphaean Mountains while en route to Northern Europe.

______________________

Noah Webster wrote that the earliest geographers applied the term to the Alps in Switzerland and claimed that they are the source of the Danube.

Togarmah is held as the father of the Turkic, Caucasian, and Khazarian peoples.

The Khazar ruler Joseph ben Aaron (c. 960) writes in his letters:

"You ask us also in your epistle: "Of what people, of what family, and of what tribe are you?" Know that we are descended from Japhet, through his son Togarmah. I have found in the genealogical books of my ancestors that Togarmah had ten sons."

A study supporting the Japhethic migration into Europe:
Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities

a reply to: Sahabi

This interview with David Rohl deals with many of the wrong dates with Egypt and shows how the dates can be corrected .The Egyptian chronology throws other cultural dates out of wack including dating in the bible Using text and astrology chronology and communications to Egypt the dates can be confirmed to the day .

originally posted by: Sahabi

there's NO evidence of the Hebrews being in Egypt in any great numbers until around the time of the Ptolemies (300 BC or about 800 years after the events you are mentioning.)

The academically viewed origin of both the Hebrew and Hyksos People is enigmatic, but it is commonly said that they both were an ancient Semitic People of Canaan, Palestine, and the Levant. And regarding the Israelites in particular, it is academically held that they emerged endogenously from the People of the Land of Canaan / Palestine.

But they don't correlate. The Hyksos in Egypt was more an influx of immigrants that then became too powerful and were driven out. The Hyksos had chariot technology and a number of other technologies that wouldn't be found in nomadic people.

You mentioned the year 300 BC and the Ptolemaic Dynasty. By highlighting this era, I assume that you are alluding to the works of Manetho?

During the time of the Ptolemies, Alexandria was known as a city of enlightenment (though it wasn't, entirely.) One of the Ptolemies asked 12 scholars from each of the 12 tribes to come to the Library of Alexandria and write down what would the Koine Greek version of the Torah (which then becomes the Pentateuch and foundation of the Bible.) Alexandria was a lively, multicultural city and there was a Jewish presence there.

However, as you pointed out, I got my eras confused... this happens when I don't doublecheck (eeep!)

I do think you're starting from the wrong end, though... the Torah was written (drawing from older sources) during the Babylonian Captivity. It is a story of triumph, faith and divine retribution on a powerful enslaving state. It's not a true history but a fictional inspirational story. Egypt made a convenient patsy for the story (just as fictional stories many years after WWII made Nazis the Ultimate Enemy.)

The Hebrews would not have had much interest in the Hyksos ... except, perhaps, as the subject of a jeremiad. They were "pagans" and worshiped a storm god. They practiced horse burials and had chariots - so their technology was much better than the Hebrews.

On the other hand, before the United Monarchy; Kingdom of Israel, many indigenous Levantines did in fact experience some degree of Egyptian enslavement, be it military or political POWs, etc.

Not to a great degree, though. The Egyptian economy was not a slave-based economy, so there were relatively few slaves.

(interesting discussion... I like the linked materials -except for the videos.)

a reply to: Sahabi

I came across this explanation for the curse and what was going on . In the video he refrences Mike Heisers podcast from Leviticus .

a reply to: Byrd

Hiya Byrd. Sorry so late!

"I do think you're starting from the wrong end, though... the Torah was written (drawing from older sources) during the Babylonian Captivity. It is a story of triumph, faith and divine retribution on a powerful enslaving state. It's not a true history but a fictional inspirational story. Egypt made a convenient patsy for the story (just as fictional stories many years after WWII made Nazis the Ultimate Enemy.)

The Hebrews would not have had much interest in the Hyksos ... except, perhaps, as the subject of a jeremiad. They were "pagans" and worshiped a storm god. They practiced horse burials and had chariots - so their technology was much better than the Hebrews."

As far as making correlations with the Biblical texts, I do agree that it's not a completely true history. I am seeking kernels of historic events that may have served as inspiration.

You make a great point about the technology gap between the Hyksos and the Hebrews. But regarding the "mythological" aspect of the OP, I am looking for possible inspirations to the stories.

I am unaware of any ancient horse burials in Israel, however, there are a few instances of donkey burial:
Bronze-Age Donkey Sacrifice Found in Israel

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Very interesting lectures by Dr. David Rohl. They're pretty short, I watched all 4 parts. Thank you very much for the share! I especially enjoyed Part 2, when he mentions the Canaanite archeological discoveries in Avaris. I sure would like to watch the full length lecture that those snippets were pulled from.

True Story:

This thread came about as a result of an unexpected conversation with a complete stranger. One day while out grocery shopping, a man approached me, and for no apparent reason, began to communicate his grand conspiracy theory about the world.

He went on about the New World Order, One World Government, "The Aquarian Conspiracy", "Trilaterals Over Washington", "The Atlantean Conspiracy", and detailed the horrors of mechanized foods and the media conglomerates.

There was nothing to provoke this encounter, nor did I open the discussion to conspiracy related topics. Simply, he walked over to me, said; "Hello," and immediately began to articulate his theories. Weird, but fascinating. This guy sure knew a lot! Myself, having studied conspiracies for over two decades, found little surprise in his words, but I was impressed with the scope and depth of his knowledge.

We exchanged phone numbers, and through later correspondence, he told me that he used to be a Black Hebrew Israelite, but now follows no religion or ideology.



"Replacement Theology"

He told me his beliefs about, "Those who say they are Jews, and are not". He believes that the Ashkenazi Jews are not the true Hebrew Israelites, and that they are not even Semites. He says that the Ashkenazi Jews are Khazars, descended from Magog and Tubal, who are descended from Japheth. He says that they are followers of the old Canaanite Religion, specifically, devotees of Dagon, Ba'al, Moloch, and Athirat/Astarte/Ishtar.

He elaborated, that, in order to conceal their inequities and grow in strength, the Ashkenazi infiltrated the Hebrew Israelites and subverted the religion of Moses. He explains the formation of the U.N. and the State of Israel as a result of their scheming. He called this theory of his; "Replacement Theology".



His theory left me intrigued. I then set out to confirm and/or debunk his claims. The background research of this thread came as a result of that search.

Instead of corroborating his theory, I instead connected the dots and arrived at the "Curse of Ham". I found the Ashkenazi to be both Semitic and Japhethic, which debunks his theory, yet correlates with Noah's Curse:

"Cursed be Canaan [Son of Ham]! He shall be a slave unto the servants of his brothers! Bless Yahweh, the God of Shem! Canaan shall be the slave of Shem! God, exalt Japheth and may he dwell in the tents of Shem and have Canaan as his slave!"

wow!! you put alot of time and research into this op. I've only managed to read around half of it. I'm just posting to thank you and to be sure that I have an easy way to find this thread again to read the rest....

a reply to: dawnstar

No problem! I hope you enjoy the content. Feel free to add any thoughts or opinions as you get through the material.

a reply to: Sahabi

I wanted to drop off a link to Mike Heiser's latest podcast "Naked Bible 159: Noah’s Nakedness, the Sin of Ham, and the Curse of Canaan" www.nakedbiblepodcast.com...

The episode of Noah’s drunkenness in Genesis 9 has long befuddled interpreters. One of Noah’s sons, Ham, commits some heinous crime against his father. Oddly, though, Ham is not the one cursed by his father. Instead, Ham’s son Canaan bears the wrath of Noah. This episode explores the traditional solutions to the interpretive confusion and offers an alternative based on recent research in the Hebrew text.

I found it was quite well presented and helped clear up some of the unknown aspects of the "sexual " sin that was committed . Turns out that Canaan's Mom and Ham's Mom were the same person .

You didn't find #. Ashkenazi khazar scum are not semitic other than by rape and kidnapping.

originally posted by: Sahabi

True Story:

This thread came about as a result of an unexpected conversation with a complete stranger. One day while out grocery shopping, a man approached me, and for no apparent reason, began to communicate his grand conspiracy theory about the world.

He went on about the New World Order, One World Government, "The Aquarian Conspiracy", "Trilaterals Over Washington", "The Atlantean Conspiracy", and detailed the horrors of mechanized foods and the media conglomerates.

There was nothing to provoke this encounter, nor did I open the discussion to conspiracy related topics. Simply, he walked over to me, said; "Hello," and immediately began to articulate his theories. Weird, but fascinating. This guy sure knew a lot! Myself, having studied conspiracies for over two decades, found little surprise in his words, but I was impressed with the scope and depth of his knowledge.

We exchanged phone numbers, and through later correspondence, he told me that he used to be a Black Hebrew Israelite, but now follows no religion or ideology.



"Replacement Theology"

He told me his beliefs about, "Those who say they are Jews, and are not". He believes that the Ashkenazi Jews are not the true Hebrew Israelites, and that they are not even Semites. He says that the Ashkenazi Jews are Khazars, descended from Magog and Tubal, who are descended from Japheth. He says that they are followers of the old Canaanite Religion, specifically, devotees of Dagon, Ba'al, Moloch, and Athirat/Astarte/Ishtar.

He elaborated, that, in order to conceal their inequities and grow in strength, the Ashkenazi infiltrated the Hebrew Israelites and subverted the religion of Moses. He explains the formation of the U.N. and the State of Israel as a result of their scheming. He called this theory of his; "Replacement Theology".

 

His theory left me intrigued. I then set out to confirm and/or debunk his claims. The background research of this thread came as a result of that search.

Instead of corroborating his theory, I instead connected the dots and arrived at the "Curse of Ham". I found the Ashkenazi to be both Semitic and Japhethic, which debunks his theory, yet correlates with Noah's Curse:

"Cursed be Canaan [Son of Ham]! He shall be a slave unto the servants of his brothers! Bless Yahweh, the God of Shem! Canaan shall be the slave of Shem! God, exalt Japheth and may he dwell in the tents of Shem and have Canaan as his slave!"

a reply to: BigBangWasAnEcho

"You didn't find #. Ashkenazi khazar scum are not semitic other than by rape and kidnapping."

You are backwards wrong.

You said; "rape and kidnap",.... so this means a European man victimizing a Semetic woman. Correct?

Well,... Ashkenazi Jews are actually Semitic paternally. That means their male lineage is Semetic. It is actually their maternal (Female) lineage that is European.

There have been many independent and international studies done on the Ashkenazi genome. I suggest you look into those and see that they plainly debunk the "Khazarian Jew" conspiracy. I understand, I once believed that conspiracy theory until I did my own thorough research. You are one step away from the truth, all you have to do is learn about the genetic studies. Best wishes to you

a reply to: Sahabi

What interesting and intriguing and well-researched posts! I had a great time reading, and I think you are spot on in many places, though I disagree to parts of it. Well done! S/F