The two Jesus's Matthew 27:16-23

a reply to: LABTECH767
Cheers for the info. This is where it gets tricky cos others source different historical interpretations of the origins. It's why I asked rickymouse about he Virgin Mary because when people mention him being a messiah, it tends to mean the person holds Islamic beliefs. Just personal experiences.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum

Many questions to ask about that response but won't derail your thread as it seems unique. Another time.

a reply to: GemmyMcGemJew

The obsession with 7 is from the time when the Jews were Persian subjects after Babylon.

The God of Persia was Ahura Mazda and he had 7 ameshaspends or Spirits. The fondness the Jews had for Persia for rebuilding the temple led to the adoption of some Persian ideas.

The concepts of the Word of God, Holy Spirit, resurrection and vast angel and demonology as well as the Kabbalah's Ain Soph and the Christian concept of the devil all come from Zoroastrianism, the Persian religion.

Pharisee is from Parsi, the modern term for a Zoroastrian today and then a certain sect.

a reply to: GemmyMcGemJew

Ask away I don't care about thread derailment. Conversations segue into different topics. If you started talking about marine biology then it would be different but I like answering questions because sometimes I don't know the answer and then I will find it and have learned something new.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum
Great info cheers. I'm sorry to ask as you have been asked this a trillion times no doubt, but here goes. Why christianity? You are fully aware of the origins of the stories, taking previously believed stories and Taylor ing it to meet their own needs, so why still believe it? Did you find it later on in life ( which is fair enough) or was it part of your life from the beginning.

a reply to: GemmyMcGemJew

What leads you to believe I accept Christianity as true? I am only interested in the esoteric teachings. I don't accept it as history and my op even says that I don't read it for the literal story but look for the hidden messages.

I could never believe in the bible the way fundamental Christians do.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum
Fair play. You talk of gods plan.
Have you ever prayed to god and asked for something? Do you feel your are disrupting gods plan by praying? Is the plan more on a cosmilogical scale that doesn't affect humans or is it intertwined with human individuality.

I know you don't knows god plan, was simply wondering if you feel it's right to ask god for change when it may not be part of his plan. If the plans been going on billions of years would he change it for your desire. And if not possible, why pray to begin with.

Age old arguement but would like to hear what you feel is right.

a reply to: GemmyMcGemJew

I study every religion. I can't wait to get to Hinduism because that is the mother of all religion. Egypt is another mother religion that is worth studying.

I am young and retired so I have the time. Hinduism has A LOT of scripture and it reads like bible stories, just different stories and gods.

But the characters of Abraham and Sarah are names after Brahma and Sarasvati, the Hindu god and his sister/wife, just like Abraham and Sarah.

The Greek Christ comes from Hinduism as well. The Greeks never met a philosophy they didn't like and borrow.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum
I assumed it because you believe in God and have many references to the bible. I thought it was a safe assumption but I'm clearly wrong.

To believe in the Christian god ( I assume) you must on some level believe SOME stories to be true, otherwise you would determine they are stories with meanings and that the god portrayed could not be true.

If you believe in a creator than obviously that is different. But it's difficult to look outside the realms of what has been taught to you when imagining what "god" is like.

From my perspective you are looking for the same answers fundamentals do just in a different way.the difference is you are still searching for the answers while they accept the answers given to them.

a reply to: GemmyMcGemJew

I only pray with thanks. God knows what you are going to ask for before you knew you needed it. The few times I have asked for things I follow Solomon's lead and ask only for wisdom or knowledge.

Often I pray in silence. I don't meditate but I am always thinking so sometimes I just need to be silent and taking the Muslim form of prostration I let my mind go blank.

It's because one of the most peaceful moments I ever had was at prayers at a Mosque. I

a reply to: GemmyMcGemJew

And I don't believe there is a such thing as the Christian God. God isn't a Christian.

Christians idea of God sickens me.


I am more tolerant and accept that God is unknowable. I know that the Old Testament Yahweh is not God.

I am comfortable calling myself a Gnostic because modern Gnostics study any and every religion without deciding one is true and the other is false.

Christianity is mental slavery the way it is taught. Believe or go to hell? I don't like threats. I don't believe everything the bible says is literal and true.

I am no Christian. But ATS isn't interested in any other religion. At all.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum
Fair enough. But why ask for knowledge and wisdom if god already knows you are gonna ask for it? He will either bestow it upon you or not like the other 99.99% of people. Wouldn't it be futile to attempt or is it a form of self peace, knowing fine well the outcome but enjoying the quest? Seems self serving no?

I don't meditate myself but without knowing you I feel you will find a far deeper level of peace in doing so.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum
Triple post?

a reply to: CapstonePendulum
Triple post?

a reply to: GemmyMcGemJew

Ask and you shall receive. A closed mouth doesn't eat. You want answers you ask. Solomon was rewarded with wisdom because he asked for it.

You don't have to be a Christian to follow the lessons Jesus taught. And sometimes you want answers that man can't provide. Who do you ask then?

Even so, I have only asked for truth and ever since I have been satisfied with the results of my Spiritual inquisition.

originally posted by: GemmyMcGemJew
a reply to: CapstonePendulum
Triple post?

What? What is that supposed to mean?

a reply to: GemmyMcGemJew

Oh you are on a cell phone, huh?

a reply to: CapstonePendulum
Very true. If you ain't christian your Muslim here.

But you believe God is unknowable but has a divine plan?
Ask and you shall receive, although god knows what you are gonna ask before you need it?

More rhetorical questions as I am satisfied with your responses. No need to answers those. Thankyou for your perspective. Nice to have a religious debate without fanciful, non sensical sentences. It's refreshing.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum
Bingo. Never been on ATS from my ipad/laptop. I keep ATS as a journey/at work filler otherwise it can become rather consuming. I don't like it when I see an article at home and think of ATS. Not healthy for me.
It's pretty obvious by my format and short text like sentences that I'm on a phone. I don't get too lost in my thoughts this way. To the point.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum

Jesus the Messiah was crucified in favor of the "notorious" but mysterious Jesus Son of the Father.". Meaning the Messiah was never meant to be the Son of God, just the Messiah who leads the Israelites to glory and for that matter the whole world. But fully human.

Could you explain why you chose that particular translation? Looking at twenty two translations i found only two that translate the name Jesus Barabbas. That brings to question of which translation/s are true and which are not true. That means to me that somewhere is/are manuscript/s that reads different than the majority Greek manuscripts. Would you care to name your source?

The Jews of that time (including the apostles) were born and raised in national rabbinic Judaic doctrine. The belief of a Messiah was that a human man of the seed of David would one day appear, conquer the world and re establish the throne of David. This king would have special wisdom from the God of Abraham, would live a long life and then die just as any human would die. Another Messiah would replace this dead Messiah and continue the reign. This golden age would continue till the end of the world when all terrestrial life would be destroyed and all mankind resurrected back into their flesh, judged and either destroyed or live forever as a bodiless soul in the bundle of life. There was believed to be a possibility of two Jewish Messiah's. One was a messiah Ben Joseph or a Messiah Ben David appearing as the king.

Now that is far different from the doctrine of Jesus Ben Joseph, son of Mary, and far fetched as to Barabbas even remotely being considered to be a candidate of any Messiah.

Am I to understand that you are to edit the NT and remove all information that teaches Jesus, son of Mary, was the Begotten Son of God and replace the majority of thousands of Greek manuscripts with the notion that a thief and murderer named Barabbas was the son of the most high God? Am I missing something or just that I don't understand?