Transgendered children: should a parent be able to chemically alter a child's sex?

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

If people like the OP would read the stories of parents who have been dealing with this, maybe they would finally understand. I have read absolutely heartbreaking stories of parents who struggle with young kids who are showing signs of deep depression and despair. Not just feeling blue for a couple of hours. I'm talking days, weeks, months, years. No kid should have to live life that way.

Parents who love their children are tearing their hair out trying to figure out how to help their kid not suffer anymore. It's amazing to read how the children started blossoming when the parents actually listened to them and allowed them to start living as the gender they identify with.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

If people like the OP would read the stories of parents who have been dealing with this, maybe they would finally understand. I have read absolutely heartbreaking stories of parents who struggle with young kids who are showing signs of deep depression and despair. Not just feeling blue for a couple of hours. I'm talking days, weeks, months, years. No kid should have to live life that way.

Parents who love their children are tearing their hair out trying to figure out how to help their kid not suffer anymore. It's amazing to read how the children started blossoming when the parents actually listened to them and allowed them to start living as the gender they identify with.

Exactly. I once had the same opinion as the op. Pretty sure the military dad and mom(I mentioned) did as well until there kid was trans.

We do need to study the effects of the therapies however on long term health as well as psychological health. That way if new drugs or methods are needed they don't just stop with current therapies. Like I said look at the add crisis. We never examines the bigger picture solutions and the diagnosis were far to loose. Now far to many kids are in drugs that show absolutely zero long term help.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: angryhulk

What if your 3 year old told you she didn't want to be here anymore? What if she stopped playing, stopped eating, stopped sleeping? What if she became withdrawn and listless? Would you just laugh it off?

Of course not...

But I damn sure wouldn't use her 3 year old opinion to have her name changed and start pretending she was born a boy.

Nor would I decide my 3 year old deserved to be the center of the universe for every bully and crazy religious person within a 100 mile radious.

If you swap a kid in grade school, her social identity to her peers will not be that of a boy. It will be "crazy chic who pretends to be a boy, and my mommy says is probably a personal friend of satan."

If you had a kid with identify problems, and you were afraid of suicide. The last thing you should do is heap the mountain of extra BS that would come with making your kid the public poster child for a decisive political issue.

Honestly when it got to the point I was pretty sure, that was just who she was, and that she wasn't just gay. Then our family would treat her as she wished, but I would advise her not to include her classmates in her personal matters. As an adult you can avoid the craziness of grade/highschool and just live your life.

a reply to: angryhulk

I agree with you, but to put this in perspective, you're 3 year old daughter says she wants to be a boy, you laugh it off and try to influence her to change her mind in a way that does not cause her any trauma. It works, no problem.

What if it doesn't? How hard do you try before you seek help from qualified professionals? What if that still doesn't work and you end up with a depressed and suicidal child or teenager? I know of a case where a seven year old boy tried to castrate himself with a kitchen knife. Obviously that child needed help that was beyond the scope of his parents to provide alone.

But here's the important thing, that help may not be in the form or gender reassignment, maybe there is something more serious wrong with that kid.

Worldwide, 42% of people who suffer from gender identity disorders have attempted to commit suicide at one point in their life. 42%. (And that's just based on the number of people who have survived.)

Its understandable that people have difficulty understanding the complexity involved in this issue, no one is saying that this should be a 'simple' thing to understand or overcome.

I would however urge you to reconsider that gender identity disorder is 'new age nonsense'. That's exactly the sort of dismissive behavior that had thousands of grown men executed in work war one before 'shell-shock' was accepted as a serious mental affliction that required treatment. It also is a good example of the kind of unintentional transphobia that can cause someone who is in need of help to self harm or worse.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

OMG you did it again.

You appear to be perfectly OK with the idea that trans people are legitimate targets for bullying discrimination.
Please tell me you didnt mean that?

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Transgendered children: should a parent be able to chemically alter a child's sex?

No. The least invasive procedure with the least amount of risks is pretty much ALWAYS the best course of action, including addressing mental/emotional issues with no direct physical threat/danger, and especially given that we do not know the longterm effects.

In terms of the mental/emotional aspects, I am increasingly convinced that the root problem is society's penchant for defining what a "real" man or woman is and then demanding everyone live up (or down) to that standard. It is impossible for anyone to know what the opposite gender "feels like." Impossible. The most one can know is that traits traditionally associated with the opposite sex appeal to them. And, obviously, if that can happen, then it's society's gender associations that are wrong and which need to be changed.

Further, I am very disturbed that so much focus is given to "passing" as the opposite sex because these folks are looking for acceptance outside themselves, and no one will ever receive everyone's approval for anything. Even if a law demands we do so. They are being set up for failure, which is just cruel. I have no problem accepting -- and respecting -- a man who does "feminine" things... I never laughed at Rosey Grier!... but I will never believe that man is "really" a woman.

Rather than having this conversation, we should be having a debate about the many many ways we label and pigeonhole men and women -- and then knock that crap off!!!

The only real longterm solution for all of us is to learn to accept and love who we are, and to be the best we can be, regardless of others' approval or lack thereof. Unfortunately, there are many people with their own self-serving agendas who are exploiting these people's plight for their own self-serving agendas.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

So what if this continues throughout childhood? At 5 still a girl. At nine. At 13. Do you help the child transition before they look like their birth sex or do you give them a chance to look as close to their identity as possible. Thats the real question here.

Nobody thinks pwrmentaly altering grade school kids is a good idea. You can easily change schools in most states if you want your kid to make new friends if they were wrong about their identity or revert back to their birth sex. The issue is trying to create as stable and happy child as possible. That is the goal here for most parents.

There will always be acceptions and bad parents you can't make decisions by a few bad apples.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: redshoes
a reply to: JoshuaCox

I think perhaps you are mis informed about the actual medical practice for kids who appear to be living with gender identity disorder.

First off, only about 20% of minors who express a preference to switch genders actually go on to transition into their chosen gender once they are old enough.

Secondly, medical intervention is not prescribed until the child is about to enter puberty. Any medical intervention at that point is limited to delaying puberty in order to allow the child to mature to the point that they are capable of understanding the potential risks and consequences of their actions.

Thirdly, medical intervention is limited by law and WHO recommended practices to hormone treatment that can be easily addressed by stopping treatment and allowing the patient to revert to their birth gender. Surgical treatment is not permitted until the patient has become an adult legally. And any medical intervention must be prescribed by a certified specialist and psychologist.

The guidelines dictated by the WHO for when and how to prescribe treatment are fairly stringent, even in the case of fully matured adults. The underlying principal is that gender dsyphoria is a recognized medical and psychiatric condition and treatment is only prescribed when there is sufficient evidence to suggest that the patients life, or quality of life, is in jeopardy if no intervention is made.

Legally, it is not not possible for a child to consent to changing their gender, even without medical intervention, until they reach the age of maturity. And even then in most countries they need to make a declaration which is judged and validated by a judge.

I live in Ireland, where we recently changed the law to allow adults to legally change their gender by making a declaration. Its one of four countries in the world who provide this legal support to transgendered individuals. It is not possible for a minor to legally change their gender if they are under age without approved assessments made by psychiatric professionals and the approval of a court.

Lastly the vista of parents who actively support or encourage their children to change gender is a myth. I know of no such case actually happening.

As with all medical interventions, there are laws that prevent doctors and parents from following any course of action that might endanger a child's physical well being.

I went looking and didn't find anything yet, but this doesn't look good for your assertion.

www.nbcnews.com...


Appearently science can't even tell between male and female brains, let alone male vs trans male...






Then you have never watched pageant moms... Sure it's not gender related, but I think the mentality of those mothers could easily transfer.

You have people who kidnap, rape , murder, exc exc, exc their own children, yet the thought that some crazy parent could influence such a thing is impossible??

Parents push their kids to be all kinda stuff constantly, there are 7 billion of us.

Also I have seen many videos of 5 to 10 year olds who's parents have swapped them already. They are almost used as "awe look how sweet he looks" advertisements.

You might be %100 right about the ability for your body to undo hormone therapy, I am not knowledgeable about that, but it seems hard to believe, since puberty is so important to development, and pharm stuff rarely doesnt come with a long list of negatives.

You can safeguard issues like your concerns but you will never eliminate them. Thay can't be a reason to deny good parents and drs from helping their kids. I don't believe that is a good arguement. It's like saying we shouldn't have cars because people drive under the influence.

The switches parents are doing for the most part of these young children you describe are done with the aid of therapists and non paermanent changes. The few that do this as a pet project are always going to happen in any realm of medicine. Parents who think there kids are allergic to everything (with no medical assement), pagentry as you say, theater dance math anything parents do the wrong thing sometimes. That is not a reason not to help the kids that need help.

I agree though there should be a system that has redundant safeguards in the medical system to help alleviate misdiagnosis and to get parents involved and educated.

I think the crux of the argument isn't the potential for bad parents, Drs or misdiagnosis. It is allowing a 4 year old to make this kind of call. I think any parent would agree that at 4, their kid shouldn't have been making decisions that will effect them until that are at least 18.

There is nothing measurable about this diagnosis..it's based on no more then a questionnaire and a few psyc evaluations...psyc evaluations of a 4 year old....at least where swapping is concerned.. And the hormone decisions are made on a questionnaire and the psyc evaluation of an 8 year old!!!!


For people to make these kind of decisions for a child, I want some form of definitive test. Maybe they find the gene that controls it, and a DNA test would work. Maybe they find a brain scan that can diagnosis it.

If gender identity and sexual orientation is genetic/biological (and I think it is) we will find a test one day.

They are already finding these things which just shows you haven't looked into the issue.

Like I said the studies are finding the kids diagnosed with GD or trans kids do have brain indicators that show the brain is responding to the gender of identification. That is showing the analysis by drs is correct.

Thread reopened.

a reply to: luthier

www.nbcnews.com...

This (from nbc news, not some insane Christian conspiracy site) says science can't tell a male from female brain scan, let alone trans from non...

It's easy to look at this as if the parents are meddling with the kids on a whim but the counselling for something like his would be so stringent that a situation like that could probably never happen. There are also a whole bunch of professionals that would be involved in assessing and deciding if it was the best thing to do for the child at various points in the kid's development.

Jeez, I can't even imagine how difficult it would be for the entire family to have to go through something like that but on principle I have no issues with it as long as the safeguards are in place and it's handled properly.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: luthier

www.nbcnews.com...

This (from nbc news, not some insane Christian conspiracy site) says science can't tell a male from female brain scan, let alone trans from non...

You should read the study.

If you follow the link NBC provides you will see it clearly says there are male and female aspects to the brain.
Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain.

www.newscientist.com...

This article talks about trans brains.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: luthier

www.nbcnews.com...

This (from nbc news, not some insane Christian conspiracy site) says science can't tell a male from female brain scan, let alone trans from non...

You should read the study.

If you follow the link NBC provides you will see it clearly says there are male and female aspects to the brain.
Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain.

www.newscientist.com...

This article talks about trans brains.

Very nice!!

But I'm assuming this is cutting edge science. So that means they are still a good decade away from a reliable test, IF their research is found to show significant markers.

However, that ain't today.

Today it is all subjective speculation while trying to interpret the feelings of a five year old....

So there is no test today then huh?

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: JoshuaCox


I don't buy a 4 year old can make that determination, but let's say they were 10, where that had at least something remotely close to adult reasoning and understanding of the long term effects of decisions.


I would dress them in more unisex clothes and maybe swap to a version of there name that was closer to unisex.that way you provide somewhat of a neutral platform for the child to be able to make that decision at a later age, from a more informed position.

Also you limit the teasing your kid will receive from their class mates. Dressing a 4 year old as the opposite sex and changing there name, should guarentee your kid a life as a political symbol. The push back from other parents and children would be immediate..instantly your child would be singled out as the "weird one." Who which would be repeated every single grade.


I'm an athiest. But that doesn't mean I'm going to sentence my daughter to being the only 5 year old saying God (or Santa clause lol) isn't real to 3rd graders. I know she would be a target and hamstrung in every social aspect until at least high school. Most don't figure out religion is BS till college.

You don't believe a four year old can be depressed/stressed to the point of not functioning normally? You're wrong.

What if the child isn't happy with gender neutral clothing and name? What if they're still not participating in life as they should be? Kids are smart enough to know when you are trying to trick them. They won't fall for that.

If a kid changes gender and is teased/bullied, you either have the school deal with it or you move to another school whose kids don't know yours. Many parents of transgender kids have done that very thing. You do what you have to do to keep your child from wanting to end their life.

nymag.com...

It's going to be repeated at every school...some worse than others.

Hopefully your kid is logical enough to understand that playing roles is a way of life. Explain it is acting. I am not who I really am at work. Most likely you are not either. Your not who you really are around certain family members....

we play different roles in different circumstances. If your at a country club, your gonna act higher class then you are. If your in jail your gonna act tougher then you are.


If she can't deal with that, she prob can't deal life.

People don't get to choose how they look. People are obsessive about changing they way they look. Especially teenagers.

Your kid not being suicidal because they can't wear make up and a dress at school. When they are allowed to be themselves at home, I don't think is an unrealistic expectation.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: luthier

www.nbcnews.com...

This (from nbc news, not some insane Christian conspiracy site) says science can't tell a male from female brain scan, let alone trans from non...

You should read the study.

If you follow the link NBC provides you will see it clearly says there are male and female aspects to the brain.
Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain.

www.newscientist.com...

This article talks about trans brains.

Very nice!!

But I'm assuming this is cutting edge science. So that means they are still a good decade away from a reliable test, IF their research is found to show significant markers.

However, that ain't today.

Today it is all subjective speculation while trying to interpret the feelings of a five year old....

So there is no test today then huh?

Answer this .

Your child is 3 the sex is male she believes the gender is female. This continues to 4. Than 5. Now she is getting depressed and withdrawn. Then 6. More depressed. 7 even worse 8 starts to talk about suicide.

What do you do? Continue to ignore reality? Does it really matter what can be scie tifically proven or do you just try and understand what your child is going through?

This is what parents of these kids deal with. Some of them realize what's going on early enough to avoid there kids being torchered by other adults and peers and protect them by letting them become what they are.

What would you do personally if from 3-9 no matter what therapy or religious teachings had no effect on the identity and the depression continued to get worse. That is the reality of what parents of trans kids have to deal with.

a reply to: Irishhaf

It's going to be a few years yet before any sorts of long term studies are complete. As it stands now, in the short term, the effects of hormone blockers seems to, only seems mind you, indicate no lasting effects. Puberty isn't cancelled, just delayed, it seems to pick right up where it left off...

But since I'm less then an expert on this, please don't take my word for it. It's opinion only. The rest of this post isn't aimed at you, just so you know.

To the rest who seem so up in arms about this...

This decision isn't made by just the child, or just the parents...it's made in conjunction with health care experts, the parents, the child, and as I understand it, can take months. Having had issues of my own during childhood, I know to a T, how those discussions go. They're painful.

So, please stop with the attitude that this is done on some sort of whim. It, most assuredly, is not done on anything vaguely resembling a whim.

Nature sometimes goofs, people with gender dysphoria frequently have suicidal thoughts as a result of this, and the stigma attached by an ignorant populous. Something on the order of twenty times the national average among other populations. If a medical procedure can save them from this, should it not be done, because the problems start almost immediately, and many of them won't survive undamaged until "they're old enough to make the decision themselves". A lot of them will be dead.

It's no ones decision but the parents and the child. Your opinion, and mine, are not relevant, and in most cases, very unwelcome.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
So a straight kid wearing a dress and living life as a girl, with all the teasing and social pressure that kid would face, will not be detrimental to a "straight" child.

But dressing up as your birth sex and not being the center of attention for every bully in your area, can be incredibly detrimental to a legitimately trans kid?

Bullying is bullying. It happens. I imagine that a decision like this would be one made and kept as secret as possible to prevent such things. Plus bullying and ridicule happen because people don't understand something or it is abnormal. If people see it normally, it will be less of a target of bullying.

If you think that 10 or so years of possible bullying compares to a lifetime of feeling like you don't fit with your body and the suicidal thoughts that come with it, then I really don't know what to say...

I'm not talking about nor comparing being trans vs. being a feral child, in the social sense nor in how negative the long term effects would be. I'm using it as an example of how impressionable a child is....

If you watch that video, her movements are unnerving. The poor girls mannerisms and such are so doglike, it would be impossible for someone else to replicate them or pretend to be that way. She also was abused for exactly the same time scale we are discussing. Showing exactly how all in compassing a child's environment can be on their adulthood.

Yeah except that a boy wearing a dress for a while or a girl acting like a boy for a while will at the worst cause the boy to be more effeminate as a man or the girl to be more masculine as a woman. Such things AREN'T the end of the world in the society we live in.

That is why comparing this to the feral child example is an apples to oranges comparison. Being a boy and wanting to be a girl or a girl and wanting to be a boy still places you within being human. The feral child thing is a completely different monster altogether.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: luthier

www.nbcnews.com...

This (from nbc news, not some insane Christian conspiracy site) says science can't tell a male from female brain scan, let alone trans from non...

You should read the study.

If you follow the link NBC provides you will see it clearly says there are male and female aspects to the brain.
Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain.

www.newscientist.com...

This article talks about trans brains.

Very nice!!

But I'm assuming this is cutting edge science. So that means they are still a good decade away from a reliable test, IF their research is found to show significant markers.

However, that ain't today.

Today it is all subjective speculation while trying to interpret the feelings of a five year old....

So there is no test today then huh?

Answer this .

Your child is 3 the sex is male she believes the gender is female. This continues to 4. Than 5. Now she is getting depressed and withdrawn. Then 6. More depressed. 7 even worse 8 starts to talk about suicide.

What do you do? Continue to ignore reality? Does it really matter what can be scie tifically proven or do you just try and understand what your child is going through?

This is what parents of these kids deal with. Some of them realize what's going on early enough to avoid there kids being torchered by other adults and peers and protect them by letting them become what they are.

What would you do personally if from 3-9 no matter what therapy or religious teachings had no effect on the identity and the depression continued to get worse. That is the reality of what parents of trans kids have to deal with.

If this happened to me, I'd tell my kids that when they become an adult I will support them in making whatever decision it is that they want to do to their body. Not that I have anything against transgenders, just have something against making a huge decision that will effect the rest of their lives.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

You are talking about denying your whole gender. That is very very different from being reserved at work and rowdy at home. We aren't talking about small personality changes. We are talking about a whole gender change.

Do an experiment for me. Try acting the role of a woman (I'm assuming you're a man). Do it for one week in public. At home you can be the regular guy, but in public you have to be a feminine woman, with a dress, a wig and makeup. Now, imagine you have to do that every day, for several years. I don't think you are going to be very happy. As a matter of fact, I think you are going to be pretty miserable. Because that is so far away from who you are.

originally posted by: amicktd


If this happened to me, I'd tell my kids that when they become an adult I will support them in making whatever decision it is that they want to do to their body. Not that I have anything against transgenders, just have something against making a huge decision that will effect the rest of their lives.

By the time they are an adult, the permanent effects of puberty are done. Now, no matter how much hormones they take, they will have secondary characteristics of the sex they were born with that won't go away. This is one of the primary issues with depression and suicide among transgender adults.

Sooooo, you make them wait until they are an adult, you may not have to worry about the rest of their lives, because they will have already ended their life.