Is modern far left liberalism, synonymous with an anti western agenda?

originally posted by: starwarsisreal
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Well according to many minorities, they see that Left Wing White Liberal Racists are more dangerous than Right Wing Racists

Some might be surprised to learn that when people of color talk about racism amongst ourselves, white liberals often receive a far harsher skewering than white conservatives or overt racists. Many of my POC friends would actually prefer to hang out with an Archie Bunker-type who spits flagrantly offensive opinions, rather than a colorblind liberal whose insidious paternalism, dehumanizing tokenism, and cognitive indoctrination ooze out between superficially progressive words. At least the former gives you something to work with, something above-board to engage and argue against; the latter tacitly insists on imposing and maintaining an illusion of non-racist moral purity which provides little to no room for genuine self-examination or racial dialogue.

From what I can see, though, a solid majority of white liberals maintain a fairly hostile posture toward anti-racist discourse and critique, while of course adamantly denying this hostility. Many white liberals consider themselves rather enlightened for their ability to retroactively support the Civil Rights movement and to quote safely dead anti-racist icons, even though their present-day physical, intellectual, and political orbits remain mostly segregated…Armed with “diversity” soundbites and melanin-inclusive photo-ops, they seek electoral, financial, and public relations support from people of color. Yet the consistent outcome of their institution-building agendas is to deprioritize and marginalize our voices, perspectives, experiences, concerns, cultures, and initiatives.

www.washingtonmonthly.com...

Which minorities? "Many" is as subjective as it comes. That article you linked is one person's writings; nothing more and nothing less. If one person can accurately speak for an entire group of minority demographics, then I guess my own words must also speak for those same minority demographics. That's how it works, right?

(note: If you're going to make that argument, you could've at least quoted Dr. MLK's words against the complacency and silence of supposed liberals who prefer order over justice...)

a reply to: TechniXcality

For a start, I do not think that it is appropriate to refer to oneself as a patriot, unless one is determined that as time progresses, ones national government should do more honour to those who have spent their life and blood in its founding and defence, not less. The situation as it stands is unarguably opposite to that ideal circumstance, to which anyone who truly loves their nation should aspire, no matter which nation that happens to be.

In both the UK, and the US, and indeed much of the western world, populations are governed by the least noble, and most corrupt, in a fashion which damages the freedom of the people, in the name of security which means nothing without the liberty that is lost, stolen by the process enacted by government. It is not in question that war creates terrorism, not the other way around, it is a simple fact, one not in the least lost upon those who wield power in our names.

Now, you ask whether leftist, liberal thinking is synonymous with anti-western principles. I would put it to you, that the question is ludicrous. You have to understand that the motivating factors which affect a persons choices in terms of their political stance, are different from person to person. Blanket assumptions simply cannot be made about such matters, without being utterly erroneous for a huge percentage of the persons to whom they are applied. It is simply folly to engage in such divisive thinking.

What I would say, is that it is impossible to say legitimately, that one is a patriot, unless one is also capable of seeing the rot afflicting ones nation, and being brutally honest with oneself about it. For example, if you blame powerless demographies for the effects of actions undertaken by powerful entities, like banks and governments, rather than pointing the finger at those with the power, then you have not been paying the requisite attention, or could be telling yourself some white lies to make things seem less bleak. That does not make a person bad, it just means that they have not been honest with themselves, and whether deliberately or by accident, are becoming part of the problem, rather than its solution.

Failing to accept a nations responsibility for its actions in times past, is not patriotism, carries with it no honour, and does no honour to ones ancestors. Honesty, ensuring past mistakes are never repeated, combating the things which threaten the nation from within, before trying to get to grips with threats from without, these are ways to bring honour to a nation, these are ways to ensure that some pride can be justly accrued, to make the most of the sacrifices made in the name of the nation, and the people that live in it.

I think it is very important that you understand, that a person who hates his government may love his country more than life, even when the banner he paints and marches beneath could be spun to suggest otherwise. Some of those who love my nation the most, are those who demand its government behave differently, and make the most God awful racket about its failings. They do not do so because they do not care about the country, it's people, it's history or its culture, but precisely because they love it enough to want its government to do its people, it's culture, and it's history honour in all that they do, something which is simply not the case.

What you see as anti-western, may be nothing more than patriotism. After all, what is more patriotic than someone who loves a place despite its faults, and has the conviction and strength of character to aspire to better things for his countrymen?

I do find it interesting that on a heavily right wing dominant website. The liberal left are pretty much synonymous with all things bad. Though when I joined. I was always being told that conservatives take personal responsibility. Yet when I come on here, conservatives are always blaming one group or another for everything wrong. Whether it be black lives matter or the new scapegoats those pesky millennialist. With their hair cuts and loud music. It's like being transported back to the 50s. Where elvis and rock and roll were the Devils creation.

So when are the conservatives going to take responsibility or is the blame game just that bit easier. Your headed straight back to McCarthyism, but that was when America was great according to the Donald. Simple scape goats, for the simple minded

Liberalism has nothing to do with the far left.


en.wikipedia.org...

Liberalism is a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality.[1][2][3] Whereas classical liberalism emphasizes the role of liberty, social liberalism stresses the importance of equality.[4] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally they support ideas and programs such as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, free markets, civil rights, democratic societies, secular governments, and international cooperation



You can get left wing liberals, and right wing liberals. In fact most of what we now call modern Capitalism has been taken over by the neo-liberal conservative agenda.

Yes.

The Right has many flaws, the left has many flaws, but as someone who has always been in favour Liberty, and traditionally falling on the left side of the spectrum, I see a massive amounts of western-hatred in the Left, to the point I won't even mention politics with someone unless I know they are at least willing to listen and not lump me in as a 'god damn liberal commie' or, more often now, a 'Guns and Bible racist redneck' (As an Englishman that's not keen on practising a religion, this causes some chuckling to myself).

The far Left has made any leftist ideals dirty, with their hatred of self and demeaning of the west, while failing to accept the faults of non western Nations. In fairness, the Right can be said to have the opposite problem, but I personally don't see it.

Here in the U.K. many of our once proud institutes of learning have bowed to the (far) lefts ideals, removing statues deemed offensive, because great people in history held views that were very common in their times, while Non-Western nations/figures/ideals are given a green light because it is their culture.

All Nations have a grey past, none are angels, none are demons. But it seems the current (last 10/15 years) trend to focus on the negative aspects of the West, ignore the positives, and to use fair judgement just means you fall into the 'West is great, we dindu nuffin' crowd. Never have I been tarred as a far leftist/commie for trying to keep my views as balanced and based in fact.

That alone tells me that the Left or parts thereof, have a real boner for anti-West sentiment, that the Right does not have in earnest for 'West is best and never did a bad thing' mentality.

I still hold many ideals from the Left, but Liberty and equality are no longer ideals that I hold and still feel are recognised by the Left.

I do hold the west to a stonger code of right and wrong than non Western nations, so sometimes I could be seen as being anti-West myself, so while I agree with you fully, its worth noting that SOME people only seem it (west-hating) because they strongly believe we can do better.

Good thread

originally posted by: NthOther
It's definitely anti-Christian, although I'm not sure about "anti-Western". In my experience, far left adherents, generally, seem to be mostly preoccupied with things that are indeed very "Western"--material positivism, gadgetry and technological dependence, immersion in pop culture, hedonism, etc.

Sometimes I think they can't get any more "Western".

75% of the nation are Christian.

38% of the nation are conservative.

Therefore it reasons that a significant portion of liberals are also Christian, so to say that liberals are anti-Christian is just partisan nonsense.

The radical left's criticism of the west has been occuring for quite some time and is well documented. Luckily for them it's because they live in the west that they can do so. The irony is they never leave the west and live elsewhere.

One could argue that many of the problems plaguing the west are the same problems the "liberal left" has with the west.

Some of the same problems even conservatives complain about are caused by either the inaction or interventionist policies of the west in the last 100 years.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
The radical left's criticism of the west has been occuring for quite some time and is well documented. Luckily for them it's because they live in the west that they can do so. The irony is they never leave the west and live elsewhere.

Probably for about the same amount of time that conservatives have been falsely equating being critical of something as being against it.

originally posted by: woodwardjnr
I do find it interesting that on a heavily right wing dominant website. The liberal left are pretty much synonymous with all things bad. Though when I joined. I was always being told that conservatives take personal responsibility. Yet when I come on here, conservatives are always blaming one group or another for everything wrong. Whether it be black lives matter or the new scapegoats those pesky millennialist. With their hair cuts and loud music. It's like being transported back to the 50s. Where elvis and rock and roll were the Devils creation.

So when are the conservatives going to take responsibility or is the blame game just that bit easier. Your headed straight back to McCarthyism, but that was when America was great according to the Donald. Simple scape goats, for the simple minded

Ah, there's the problem. When they talk about "personal responsibility", they only mean it for victims. If a woman is raped, they'll say she should've done something to prevent it. If an unarmed minority male is killed by police, they'll say he should've dressed differently and acted differently to prevent it. If someone is robbed, they'll say the victim should've had a gun, shouldn't have stood out so much, shouldn't have been there in the first place, etc. And when homeowners were screwed over in the foreclosure crisis, they say the homeowners should've done more to prevent it.

It's the same things they say right now with people who have crippling student loan debt. And the ex-convicts who can't get good housing or good jobs, even though they've already repaid their debts to society. And they still push for "free markets" which are literally "lawless markets". Think about that for a second. They want a business environment where companies can screw over their customers; and it's up to the customer to prevent getting defrauded. I'm not joking. Just look at how many of them openly say businesses should be allowed to discriminate against customers, and that it's up to the customers to stop shopping at those businesses.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Probably for about the same amount of time that conservatives have been falsely equating being critical of something as being against it.

Speaking of falsely equating, revolutions are a little more than being critical.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

They're all just temporarily embarrassed millionaires. They're just waiting for their ship to come in, for providence to deliver them to top of the economic ladder. They'll become one of the 1% -- but only if the "loosers" and "moochers" take a hike. Didn't you know it's "those people's" fault that they aren't millionaires and living in huge McMansions?

And you know, it's ironic. Most of my conservative friends LOVE George Carlin's humor. They seem to forget he said:

"The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it."

Watch enough FoxNews and you'll see the false narrative being pushed. It's insane how the talking heads on Fox boost and bolster lower class conservative's sense of net worth and wealth ... convincing these lower class people they're richer than they actually are.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Yep, I've noticed. I believe that's why even many poor conservatives don't want to tax the wealthy and powerful corporations. They think they're a few steps away from being wealthy too, and don't want to deal with those laws.

There's a quote that's attributed to eventual President Lyndon B Johnson. Supposedly he said "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." This quote was supposedly from 1960, so it's a safe bet that Fox News is just following in this tradition that's spanned several generations now (especially when you mix in the purpose behind the "Southern Strategy", too).

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Conservatives want lower taxes because they believe that an individual is better suited to spend his money than a government. It's really that simple. There is plenty of literature on conservatism available outside of our respective echo-chambers. It's much easier to criticize something we can understand instead of taking wild shots in the dark.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Here's the problem. The mainstream crappy, regressive, and bought out conservatism that Fox News represents has also infected other conservative outlets. After I saw Mises.org preaching Climate Change denial (using the standard cookie cutter political arguments too), I couldn't accept their viewpoints anymore. Scientific topics are NOT political footballs. If you want to dismiss climate change, do it with a scientific argument. NOT a political one.

Oh btw. Socialism used to be a universally accepted political viewpoint, by both liberals AND conservatives. That is until nefarious rich interests looking out for themselves co-opted the conservative viewpoint.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

LOL You're preaching economics to me? I know what the theories are for why conservatives say they want low taxes. But things always happen differently in theory and in practice. And in practice, they have no problem taxing poor people and giving that tax revenue to wealthy people, corporations, defense contractors, and the rest of the MIC.

I live in a State that has a sales tax and this is exactly what happens here. The poor pay a far larger percentage of their income as taxes than the wealthy do. And the large businesses basically hold the small cities hostage, basically demanding large tax rebates, tax free status for specific properties, and taxpayer funds to help build those proprieties. And if those demands aren't met, the companies threaten to leave, which reduces the number of jobs.

It's the creative use of tactics like this that allow so many wealthy corporations and institutions to avoid paying taxes, leaving the normal taxpayers to pick up the tab. That's how the conservative tax philosophies work in practice. But I'm sure you already know this.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Socialism was accepted but it discredited itself by its own results, which turned out to be disastrous. That experiment is hopefully over, though I have a feeling some have already forgotten the events of 20th century already, and are trying to defend that word for whatever strange reason. Either way, the conservative, libertarian and liberal critics were correct about socialism all along.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

No, I’m not preaching economics to you. Conservatism isn’t an economic theory. I was just telling you your speculation regarding what conservatives want was way off, likely because you know little of what conservatism entails, its assumptions, principles and body of work. Also, I’m not sure how conservatism equates to profit motives and crony capitalism. Neither are all business and corporations run by conservatives. I’m beginning to wonder what this has to do with conservatives whatsoever.

That is not how conservative tax philosophies work in practice nor in theory. Conservative tax philosophy, fiscal conservatism, entails lowering taxes and lowering government spending. That’s it.

Corporate taxes in the US are some of the highest in the world, and look how well that is working for you. Of course there is going to be corporate inversion and corporations trying to avoid paying those taxes; of course they are going to leave the country if they have to pay too much to the government; of course corporations are going to be unable to pay decent wages to their employees. Large corporations have tremendous overhead. How do you expect them to pay a decent wage, medical insurance, and to remain doing so, while at the same time taxing the # out of them?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

How can you say that Socialism has failed when there are Socialist leaning countries that have better standards of living than we do?

Either way, the conservative, libertarian and liberal critics were correct about socialism all along.

Is it any wonder how you missed the context I was trying to relay to you that "classic" libertarianism ALIGNS with Socialism since "classic" libertarianism agreed with it? As did ALL political people. There is no, "they were right all along." That wasn't even an idea they considered. Helping people survive when they fall under hard times was just considered the right thing a government should do to take care of its people.

Besides, the idea that Socialism has failed is just a clap trap invented by the very same crappy journalism from Fox News that we were just talking about. Heck it's like a trigger word at this point to get a conservative frothing at the mouth. You couldn't have been any more predictable with your standard, go to points about how Socialism has failed and it's done. Yeah we've heard it all before. Except reality doesn't agree with you. Socialism is alive and well in this world. In this country even. It may not be PURE Socialism, but it is there. So argue all you want with the obvious and reality, but everything you are relaying me just spells undertones of ignoring historic context.