The United States: Is the Problem Really Guns?

I was looking for something to compare the number of cop killings in the United States vs. other countries such as my own (Australia), and looking at this image it made me think: Is the problem really guns? I think they certainly aggravate things, yes. Like a droplet of blood frenzying sharks. But much like the droplet of blood frenzying the sharks, without the blood the sharks are still there.

Now, the more liberal among you will probably be yelling at your monitor, "Eilas, of course it is! Look at that massive block of gun homicides!"
The more conservative, perhaps explaining "guns are no problem at all. Guns lead to safety and freedom."

Here's the thing: Obviously, there are many, many people killed by guns. Of course there would be. There's tons of them, and they're super effective at killing. If you want someone killed, aren't many things better than a gun. That civilians have access to, at least.
But what I noticed looking at that image, what really made me actually quite surprised, is that even if you totally slice all gun-homicides off the top... Just the non-gun homicides alone are higher than the total of the other three countries on the list. That's crazy. The US is a country where the Gun to People concentration is higher than one. There are guns everywhere. The only reasons to not kill someone with a gun are:

1) You can't acquire one. (Unlikely.)
2) You want something a bit more subtle. (That means the death was going to occur regardless.)
3) You're attacked and don't have one to defend yourself with, or are unable to make use of it. (That too means that this would happen were there no guns.)
4) Accident. (Also happens without guns anyway.)
5) You can't use one. (Killing still would have occurred without guns.)

The essential point is that no homicide without guns would have logically been prevented had guns not existed within the country at all.

What this says to me is that even if all guns in the US were to immediately vanish, it would still have a (homicide) rate far exceeding that of the other countries featured in the image. All the homicides not involving guns would have occurred without guns, and I find it hard to believe that less than 20% of gun homicides would only have occurred with guns. (At the very least they would have still been attempted, even if they resulted in a non-lethal attack.)

I might be deliriously wrong (it's very late and I'm quite tired after all) and its just the guns sparking a powderkeg or even mere happenstance, but assuming I am not there are three things in particular that cause this. The three root causes. If these were fixed, I believe the homicide rate at least would drop quite sharply.
1) Awful police force.
2) Culture.
3) Economic issues.

I'll expand on why I think these three reasons in particular make things as they are in later posts, but for now, I'd like to see what others think.

a reply to: Eilasvaleleyn

But what I noticed looking at that image, what really made me actually quite surprised, is that even if you totally slice all gun-homicides off the top... Just the non-gun homicides alone are higher than the total of the other three countries on the list. That's crazy.

You just stumbled on the reality. Murderous intent is the cause of murder, not the murder weapon.

Firearms are focused upon because our government wants to disarm the people that aren't murderous, but might rise up, given enough incentive. Thats what keeps the politicians in check, the teeth behind the Republic, all those firearms in the hands of the responsible citizens.

I hope they sleep fitfully at night, thinking about that.

a reply to: Eilasvaleleyn
The issue is gang culture/violence really and you can't scream for regulation every time there's a mass shooting for safety. Take Sandy Hooks how would have regulation prevented that? Weren't even his guns.

a reply to: intrptr

I do think that guns cause a large aggravation. I'm not making this topic to declare that I am pro-gun (it's more accurate to say that I'm anti-gun-control-for-the-US-due-to-practicality and have been for some time.) The point I am trying to make is that while it's true that removing the blood from the water will calm the sharks down (gun control decreasing homicide rate) we should really be focusing on removing the sharks. To use another weird analogy, it's like putting lemon juice and salt on an open wound. It makes it significantly worse, but the problem is ultimately the wound which should be focused on first, not the lemon juice and salt.

If you want to be somewhat more broadly philosophical about it, we as a species really need to work on eliminating our violence and cruelty.

Gun don't cause murder.
Forks don't cause obesity.
Beer don't cause drunk driving.

The ghetto has a thug problem.

The gov would rather you are in debt and controlled.

The gov knows how to do math.

How much can we push down on, distract and and extract from these stupid cattle before they snap ?

The US has a corruption problem.

36 years in the US, I have been shot never.

a reply to: Eilasvaleleyn

(it's more accurate to say that I'm anti-gun-control-for-the-US-due-to-practicality and have been for some time.)

At least you're honest. My point still is an always is ain't the guns that cause crime, its the criminals…

The US doesn't have a gun problem. We have a feral young black male problem. The vast majority of gun violence is concentrated in inner cities and primarily perpetrated by young black males against other black males.

Unless you address this politically incorrect fact, solutions will never be forthcoming. However, no one wants to examine why it is the young black males in inner cities are so inclined to be involved with gun violence.

We do seem to have an issue with mass shootings, but in the scheme of gun violence, they are relatively rare despite all the constant media coverage.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Eilasvaleleyn

(it's more accurate to say that I'm anti-gun-control-for-the-US-due-to-practicality and have been for some time.)

At least you're honest. My point still is an always is ain't the guns that cause crime, its the criminals…

Just to play devils advocate here... Are you seriously claiming giving convicted criminals and gang members (in any country) the right to legally bear arms, or the right to carry a firearm at all times, wouldn't raise the murder rate?

About 10 or so years ago here in the states, there was an interesting phenomenon called "Blue Collar Comedy Tour" that swept across the nation by storm. It basically consisted of 4 " rednecks " if you will, that were quite funny and told very down to earth, relatable jokes.

I shall now quote, from the honorable Larry the Cable Guy my personal favorite:

"If guns kill people, then I can blame misspelled words on my pencil!"

What our friend Larry is saying is that you cannot blame the instrument, but instead, can only blame the weilder of said instrument.
So, to sum it up, the problem is our countries current mental unfittidness. There are a myriad of reasons which we can discuss for days... But what it comes down to is that this country has a sort of sickness currently.
I'll be the first to tell you I'm not exactly sure the root of it, (as it is most likely a bit of an algebra equation with lots of variables) but also the first to tell you that it indeed exists.

I've taken the first step and admitted we have a problem. The rest I fear, is up to us all individually to cure our disease.

We have a huge problem with kids being raised in broken home getting their "moral compass" (hate that phrase) from TV (if we are lucky) or gangs, or god knows what.

We have become so obsessed with new toys we have forgotten the important stuff... like raising our kids. Add in the be your kids friend rather than a parent and you have a whole bunch of kids who have no concept of personal responsibility, seemingly no solid idea of right and wrong.. the end result well we are starting to see it i think.

One of the largest (ha) reasons for death in America is due to or related to obesity.
Guess that makes that cheeseburger you're eating a lethal weapon.
Think about it.
It's not the guns it's the government who're doing all they can to disarm, to force us to SUBMIT AND OBEY at every turn.
peace

originally posted by: Bluntone22
Gun don't cause murder.
Forks don't cause obesity.
Beer don't cause drunk driving.

Posting an observant comment on a chat board don't raise the intelligence level of the citizenry, even though I starred you.
Where do we go from here?

Guns are the tool. Not the cause.

The causes are many, unfortunately. There is no one root cause--would that that was the case, it'd be simple to fix, not easy mind, but simple.

Starting with the mental health system in this country would be a good place to start, but it's not the only place.

Rather than concentrating on fixing the problem, the solution, if one can call it that, is in all too many cases, drugs.

Now drugs have saved many a life, and will do so in the future, too. But all too often, that's all that's done. No therapy to go along with it. Drugs seem to be the first, last and only resort.

I'm in therapy myself, for PTSD related issues which I am not about to share in a public forum, and there are no drugs involved, just lots of conversation, and questions, and thought.

Start there, and in homes that are broken. Doesn't necessarily mean a single parent home...many, if not most, are just fine. My mother was raised during the Roaring Twenties/Depression by a single mom, when that wasn't exactly "acceptable". Two of my sisters raised kids in single parent households.

Guns? The least of our concerns, as pertains to this issue. Tools never cause the issue.

Great post.

I think it would be beneficial to examine what is different about the USA vs the other 3 countries on the list specifically to gun crime. Examine where the majority of gun crimes in the USA occur, and by who. Are the gun crimes with legal or illegally obtained weapons? Race? Economic status? Then compare to the other countries.

a reply to: seaswine

Is indoctrinated fear the "sickness" you speak of?

a reply to: seaswine

I've taken the first step and admitted we have a problem. The rest I fear, is up to us all individually to cure our disease.

You seem to be implying that there is only one problem. I would love to hear about it a bit more.

originally posted by: ColeYounger

originally posted by: Bluntone22
Gun don't cause murder.
Forks don't cause obesity.
Beer don't cause drunk driving.

Posting an observant comment on a chat board don't raise the intelligence level of the citizenry, even though I starred you.
Where do we go from here?

You hit the nail on the head. The problem is the intelligence level of the citizenry.

originally posted by: Bluntone22

originally posted by: ColeYounger

originally posted by: Bluntone22
Gun don't cause murder.
Forks don't cause obesity.
Beer don't cause drunk driving.

Posting an observant comment on a chat board don't raise the intelligence level of the citizenry, even though I starred you.
Where do we go from here?

You hit the nail on the head. The problem is the intelligence level of the citizenry.

Agreed. At some point someone with a higher intelligence level needs to connect the dots. If the problem is most gun murders occur in poor inner city areas by minorities then we can start to address how to fix it. More laws to prevent Mr. Smith from buying a gun in South Carolina isn't going to make a difference whatsoever in Chicago. But without the studies it's hard to make the leap that an unprecedented massive after school program initiative might reduce gun violence.

a reply to: Eilasvaleleyn

Your conclusion is generally correct. This is not so much a 'gun problem' as it is one of a rotten inner city culture combined with poor economic conditions that lead people affected by these two factors towards violent crime. You can see these factors at work very clearly in US inner cities that have major gang problems and yes, until those are addressed properly, this country will likely continue to have a violent crime/homicide rate higher than most other western nations. The fact that fully a third of our homicides...around 5,000 per year...don't even involve use of a firearm is strong enough evidence that the guns aren't the root problem, at least for me.

Addressing those issues will eliminate more firearm deaths by far than changing the gun laws. The problem is, those are complex problems that are difficult to solve. I don't have the answers, either, but I do know that, politically, its a much easier sell to slap a bandaid on it by blaming an inanimate object than to blame the people committing the crimes or to correct the problems that are leading people to commit those crimes. Meanwhile, the far greater number of gun owners that aren't committing crimes and are acting responsibly are the ones that get punished by restrictive gun laws, while the criminals just ignore the laws and keep acting the same way.