Are there limits to free will?

Perhaps those limits in the end are those we call Karma or Judgement day etc.

originally posted by: YouSir

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Profusion

Their will to resist was taken, not their will.

Ummm...it can also be argued that their will to resist was...given...to their captors by collective and individual...choice...

This is why I'm starting to wonder if checking out here on Earth when I want to isn't the best alternative.

I'm starting to wonder if I get to the point where there is no way to have a life without doing more overall damage to others than any good I do, could that be the point when checking out on my own terms isn't the best way to go.

At what point does acquiescing to evil make one evil?

originally posted by: romilo
Perhaps those limits in the end are those we call Karma or Judgement day etc.

Here's a relevant issue.

Robert Sapolsky Interview: Toxoplasmosis


www.youtube.com...

It works kind of like this, it's definitely a free will impediment issue:


www.youtube.com...

a reply to: Profusion

If you're stating that as a fact then you should be able to document it. Can you?

Even if what you wrote is 100% true, I still stand by analysis concerning the picture representing a free will issue.

You're friggin kidding right? You should so a little more looking, not just at pictures. NAZI standard operating procedure to any resistance is overwhelming and overwhelmingly documented.

Hold on to your seat…

I think as well OP is radically under-estimating the sort of mentality it takes for unarmed untrained, brutalised, terrified civilians to charge into machine guns.

How do you convince the first 5 rows of people to start charging when they know they're going to get gunned down?


Even trained professionals go pale when the order comes down to fix bayonets.


And then what? The survivors from the train have overpowered the guards, half of them are dead, they pick up a few guns and a little ammo. And the SS reinforcements start to arrive?

I don't think there is free will, because we all depend on each other('s will) and your picture is just another example. Your "will" may tell you to fight off your captors and break free, but if you're the only one (Or at least a minority) having such thoughts and willing to act, then you can't do anything.

a reply to: YouSir

Ummm…it can also be argued that their will to resist was…given…to their captors by collective and individual…choice...

No, still pretty much an individual choice, you just saw someone gunned down right in front of you, you want to be next?

The pictures carefully don't reveal other measures, the soldiers brandishing rifles lining their path, the dogs fiercely barking, the constant din of shouting on the part of their captors.

The process is one of go along to keep breathing, or else… so you do. You become a herd animal, mindless except to continue along with where everyone else, where you are being pushed. Every scream or shot that rings out, constant reminders…

Meanwhile also also at the same time, cajoling words, don't worry, you are being relocated, keep your children close, mark your luggage so it can be sent to you…

lying the whole time to instill hope to get them to the end of the line.

originally posted by: Profusion

originally posted by: YouSir

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Profusion

Their will to resist was taken, not their will.

Ummm...it can also be argued that their will to resist was...given...to their captors by collective and individual...choice...

This is why I'm starting to wonder if checking out here on Earth when I want to isn't the best alternative.

I'm starting to wonder if I get to the point where there is no way to have a life without doing more overall damage to others than any good I do, could that be the point when checking out on my own terms isn't the best way to go.

At what point does acquiescing to evil make one evil?

Ummm...At the point where one convinces oneself that they are in principal overtly or overly negative in their aspect or outlook...I would argue that in the natural world one doesn't define the roles of predator and prey as..."good or evil"...

Humans tend to attempt to separate themselves from their roots...which is what I was defining in my first post in your thread...Humanity tends to classify itself apart from and not a part of the natural world...The majority thinks that they have risen above their very mammalian nature...That evolution and enlightenment had somehow supplanted that nature with idealism...

Is it evil when a human preys upon other humans...No...it's quite natural and is predominantly determined by territorial pressures...that require an outlet not sufficiently provided for by society...(football does it for some...but not all)...

Your certainly right to question...I spent years questioning...I even thought I could attain some spiritually perfected state and elevate myself beyond what I eventually realized was just another part of my own nature...after that I pursued balance...

I look at it more as terms of negative and positive...not good or evil...it was only by accepting that I am neither one or the other...I am a fairly equally distributed representation of both aspects...
I also realized about that time that singular perspective is perceptional...that unless i open myself to all of perspective...then I limit perception to narrow interpretation...

It's not evil to consider the aspect of your own nature that utilizes the fight characteristic inherent within the organism...
Realize that repression of nature is what causes much of the negative we experience...along with the channeled repression used by ruling parties within societies or groups...

Don't hate yourself for what you are...instead meditate on what a marvelously wonderful being...a consciousness that perceives...that knows it is...that marvels in awe at the smallest and grandest of things...

Recognize that true evil is condemning oneself simply because we tend to reach beyond our grasp...Let go of guilt for being...reflect on that image in the mirror and know you can only transcend by acceptance and compassion for all of the aspects of your character...

I for one am very thankful for you starting this conversation...Your not evil my friend...your simply a combination of predator and prey...fight and flight...








YouSir

a reply to: intrptr


Ummm...I know...it is both give and take...For all of the reasons that you and I stated...which were strangely enough the same...

I wonder now why that might be...?






YouSir

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: YouSir

Ummm…it can also be argued that their will to resist was…given…to their captors by collective and individual…choice...

No, still pretty much an individual choice, you just saw someone gunned down right in front of you, you want to be next?

Let's compare that to what happened with the Amistad slave rebellion. I'm of the opinion that the only honorable thing to do if you're kidnapped is it to fight to the death as the kidnapped men on that boat did.

The bottom line is that the people who were kidnapped by the Nazis were essentially in the same position as those on the Amistad.

I'm with the poster earlier who wrote "it can also be argued that their will to resist was...given...to their captors by collective and individual...choice..."

For whatever reasons, the kidnapped men on the Amistad did not give their will to resist away while those kidnapped by the Nazis virtually all did.

I don't know why the main issue of this discussion, free will, is being lost here. I want to repeat something I wrote earlier in the thread:

I still stand by analysis concerning the picture representing a free will issue. I just did some research and I found the following. Assuming the following analysis is true, I would use many of the points to support my argument that the entire situation was an example of a manifestation of a lack of free will. Incidentally, the exact same thing may be going on in parts of Japan now. The lack of a basic survival instinct that IMHO is being seen in many places in Japan is not government-imposed at all, is it imposed by a lack of free will?

Why did only 50% of German Jews leave the country before WWII? Why not all of them?

There are various reasons here.
- WWII didn't have a date in which it was known in advance to start. Its outbreak was a surprise (attack by Germany and USSR on Poland).

- Jews, throughout the ages, got used to living through various hardships - basically embrace and let whatever hardship happens pass. There was a "lay low and don't attract attention" mentality.

- Lack of alternatives. Case in point: MS St. Louis, a ship of 937 Jewish refugees refused entry to Cuba and the US. Some European countries admitted portion of the passengers. Hitler used that in his propaganda (to show that no one wants the Jews).

- No country of their own. Palestine/Israel, under British rule (temporary mandate by the League of Nations in order to provide a national home for the Jewish people), imposed very limited number of immigrant certificates.

- Their lives, families and property were in Germany. Many of them considered themselves Germans and humans first and Jews second. They hated the antisemitism, but none of them imagined it's destined for systematic genocide. Would you be willing to give up everything you own to become a refugee? But you're not in danger, right? They didn't think they were either. A terrible mistake for which many of them paid dearly.
www.quora.com...

originally posted by: YouSir
Is it evil when a human preys upon other humans...No...it's quite natural and is predominantly determined by territorial pressures...that require an outlet not sufficiently provided for by society...(football does it for some...but not all)...

Your certainly right to question...I spent years questioning...I even thought I could attain some spiritually perfected state and elevate myself beyond what I eventually realized was just another part of my own nature...after that I pursued balance...

My answer to that is the first two sentences I wrote in this thread:

This is the type of question that I don't like to ask because it involves complete speculation. We can't make absolute statements about the entire human race because there's no way to test every single person alive.

You're judging me to be like you but I can tell by what you've written that I'm not like you. I imagine you'll come back using a fallacy of composition argument but it's fallacious, obviously.

a reply to: Profusion


Ummm...SIGH...I'm not judging you to be like me or anyone other than who or what you are...Frankly it's only observation on my part...not judgement...I've never been a believer of having an opinion forced on anyone...You either agree with someones opinion or not...
Matter of fact...I only responded to you because of your direct response to what I wrote to someone else...that and I thought you started this thread to have a conversation...Conversations are generally between individuals of distinctly different backgrounds and opinions...Had I known that what you were looking for was simplistic agreement to your premise...I would have never bothered to comment in your thread in the first place...If that's too fallacious or specious for you then frankly I don't quite know how to respond...

Obviously you can believe whatever you wish...But like Jaime in Myth Busters...is want to say...

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"...

Have a nice day...I think I'm done here...




YouSir

a reply to: Profusion

Thinking more on your initial post ... It is true that the free choice of others is taken away by use of fear

The soldiers guarding the people boarding the trains also have their free choice taken away by use of fear
They could as Human Beings dis obey their orders but fear prevents them

Which leaves one to consider how a few can control the many ...
But not to be despondent ... This does not mean that all who lead seek control

We are indoctrinated from birth ... not always maliciously but often in ignorance
But ... We each have a mind of our own and are free to follow our own thoughts

It is an unseen internal battle to overcome indoctrination

Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills... Arthur Schopenhauer.

Can you know what your next thought will be before it arises?

a reply to: Profusion

Yes we have free will.

The limit to free will is the free will of others'.


Edit:
If it isn't free will then it isn't will at all - it would be force. Yet we know we have will because we are able to purpose it, partially in some places, and fully in places we are given independence (like in the mind, where we can will the imagination of basically anything we can conceive of.)

e.g. Placebo effect versus conversion disorder (the soul believes and so purposes the spirit/will).

a reply to: Painterz

And then what? The survivors from the train have overpowered the guards, half of them are dead, they pick up a few guns and a little ammo. And the SS reinforcements start to arrive?

In Hollywood movies, they capture the train, and shoot their way out of the country, escape to Switzerland. Ever see Frank Sinatras movie, Von Ryan's Express?

In reality like you say, the survivors get rounded up and executed anyway. Now or later, but maybe not later, why not play this out to see where it leads? Maybe they will be rescued, freed, liberated, escape, survive somehow at the end.

The important lesson to take with you in life is try not to become like the evil around us. Try not to end up like they are, murderers and butchers. The ultimate test of ones strength is to not resist, to accept our fate, stand tall and take it.

The record shows that he met his end with dignity, refusing to stoop to the level of his captors, murderers, etc. Nobody here will care, but over there, you get a crown of life.

a reply to: YouSir

For all of the reasons that you and I stated...which were strangely enough the same...

I wonder now why that might be…?

Our 'bent?

a reply to: Profusion

This is why I'm starting to wonder if checking out here on Earth when I want to isn't the best alternative.

I'm starting to wonder if I get to the point where there is no way to have a life without doing more overall damage to others than any good I do, could that be the point when checking out on my own terms isn't the best way to go.

At what point does acquiescing to evil make one evil?

Uh Uh uhhh. You don't succumb to evil by not resisting it, you overcome it by not resisting it. This is not the same as accepting it.

Evil begs us to go along or fight against it. Ether way you play its tune.

Is it possible to know what your next thought will be?
If it is realized that thoughts just appear then it is obvious that there is no freewill. Can you choose what you see today?
If a bird flies past the window can you choose not to see it?

The trouble with the belief in freewill is that you will blame yourself and others for their actions. To realize that everything is simply just happening, is freedom.

The people in the picture in the OP did not know that they were going to be exterminated - they were lied to. It did take 3 days to take a town because word had reached them and they did put up a good fight.

All is the will of God anyway.

a reply to: Profusion

For whatever reasons, the kidnapped men on the Amistad did not give their will to resist away while those kidnapped by the Nazis virtually all did.

The Nazis were better at hiding their intentions a) and b), I think most victims of Slavery and Genocide would have charged their captors if they really knew where they were going to wind up.

They were deceived, led along to their doom, not told you're going to be a slave for the rest of your life, or… you, your wife and your children are headed to a gas chamber.

Personally I prefer the dilemma presented to various Partisan movements resisting the Nazis, during German Occupation of their countries during WWII. The video I presented above of Reprisal killing of town folk for Partisan activity gives the Partisan hiding in the hills actively resisting the Germans a choice.

Every time we kill a german soldier they murder ten members of our town down there, what do we do?

Keep killing Germans. They know that occupation under the Germans is a death sentence anyway eventually, so go ahead and resist. In the end resistance is dying to be free from German occupation, regardless of how many people die, many more will die if we don't fight.

Good logic, right? I get that. It helps to be young enough to be able to resist the occupation, motivated and armed. Willing to see family members die and murder others who also have families back home, for the Cause?

How does that make the resistance any different from the invaders?

Doing unto them whats done unto you is vengeance, murder, because they did it to you and yours.

How is that different again?

Apparently - science has determined that we don't have free will.
If you dont find that claim completely hilarious - you don't deserve free will...and I honestly have no reason to argue the point with anyone who believes the claim...

The 'limited' free will debate always revolves around the things we can't or don't want to do.

Issues of 'can't' are almost always a question of mechanics.

Issues of 'don't want' are will-related - ultimately, most probably someone elses will.

Humans can't 'will' a pair of wings - you will also never see a crocodile sitting on a comfy chair...or a bird driving a racing car...

Å99

originally posted by: akushla99
Apparently - science has determined that we don't have free will.
If you dont find that claim completely hilarious - you don't deserve free will...

Science has found there is no freewill!
Why is it hilarious?