Asking the right questions

I'm not going to be entertaining you with photos, youtube videos, or particular accounts. I want to tickle your brain and receive feedback in the following experiment.

UFOs are real, there's no question about it. The Who remains unanswered, however.

For many, that's a question with an already made-up answer and is strictly subjective to every person although few large groups can be formed, with a large percentage of blindfolded believers on one side and armchair skeptics on the other. For some, like myself, the mind isn't made-up because they have experienced the UFO phenomenon personally up-close and are really REALLY asking the question "Who and what the heck did I see". It's not as simple as saying it's all aliens or it's all hoax or bad observation by uneducated people.

Unfortunately, I don't claim to have any answers, I have went from so many theories that held ground in my mind, just to have it blown by something small I have missed in the whole puzzle, a question I haven't asked yet. And then my theory goes to nothing. And I'm off to the next one. Having gone through so many changes in opinion, I've learnt that asking the right questions really sets apart man from boys in this field. Also, I've learnt that the UFO phenomenon is not simple at all.

On my quest, I have found a few details that are easily understandable (as long as you manage to think in that direction and ask yourself the right questions) and hold a lot of potential in the quest for the right answers:

* the UFO phenomenon has evolved along with humankind since the 40s, both in the way UFOs interact and are interpreted by the populace and the way they appear (comparing the classic mid 20th century flying saucers with more modern black triangles, chevrons, modular craft breaking apart and joining together);

* the technology behind UFOs isn't all that advanced - we humans can grasp the concepts and possible propulsion systems allowing for such flight behavior, although we can't yet reach these technically. Although I'm not sure who pointed this out but UFOs are about 40-50 years ahead of what we are officially capable of today. Also, are pretty far from FTL travel technology. (I'd be extremely thankful to whomever is capable of pointing me in the right direction about the identity of the person that I'm quoting here, I know he's a retired high-ranking military, possibly NAVY);

* the UFO phenomenon seems very local to the planet;

* UFOs seem to show interest and interact with water on a regular basis;

* the alien hypothesis has been ultimately pushed by media, mainstream opinion and even the military.

* !military people don't just goof up, they craft their words and actions to perfection and do it to push an agenda! (think Roswell)

* the closest thing to space-like conditions are enormous sea depths.

All of the above disregard the 0.1% of really high strangeness incidents. These apply for the 5-10% of sightings of real flying craft showing abnormal speed or characteristics. A huge note - it's these 5-10% I'm going after.

Now, onto a list of common suspects.

a) NAVY (specifically) and corporations
b) aliens
c) time travelers/AI from the near future
d) inter-dimensional beings
e) rare natural phenomenon
f) we're in the matrix and UFOs are "god"s control system (e.g. Vallee)
.. or g) a species native to this planet, or at least being around for a long time.

I think possibilities b, c, d fall into the high strangeness 0.1% and as I mentioned, I don't want to discuss them as these cases are unique on their own.

A) f) and g) are interesting points to go through as they would seem to account for 5-10% of the sightings I'm in interested in.

Most of you know that the recent pushes towards the existence of a secret space program have gained a lot of traction and it's a very likely explanation, indeed. But what happens when you dig deeper is you get quite confused. For example, is this just human engineering that has taken part behind the curtain and so far has been successfully kept safe with tons of misinformation or is this alien tech we really reverse-engineered (alien as in not human discovery, but not necessarily originating from a species from a different planet).

The fact that the military people leave an opening, almost a subtle in between the lines message, for you to delve into and think "Hey it's aliens and they know, but don't want us to know". That works pretty good for them on a number of levels. First, because they clearly have tech they don't want to share with a greater part of the world and second, because they do know something, and I feel it's not only about having their hands on such technology (think Jimmy Carter being briefed on UFOs). But they're pointing you in the wrong direction. It's quite possible that once or twice Earth has been visited by aliens in modern history but I don't link that with the UFO phenomenon at all. The fact that aliens is so mainstream means it's not the right explanation.

Now... what am I missing? Which questions haven't I asked?

My contention is mainly in this statement.

"UFOs are real, there's no question about it."

There is indeed questions around it, if there wasn't there'd be a much more popular uprising taking place in regards to disclosure. As a witness myself I am constantly in awe at the level of skepticism regarding this issue. Though, as I said before, there very much IS a question about it, and to say otherwise is quite disingenuous.

a reply to: Joneselius

Meant it as in no question about the existence of flying physical objects defying current technological standards, of course, taking away meteors, satellites, lanterns, blirds, stars and other such. The existence of these is something widely accepted on ATS (even ATS's greatly known skeptics know there is some merit to the phenomenon, therefore they show interest in it, ask Phage if you will). There's no question about the existence. There are a lot of questions around the phenomenon indeed, and this is the point of the thread. The thing is, there are good and bad questions. Now, hit me with the good ones!

originally posted by: ch1n1t0
UFOs are real, there's no question about it. The Who remains unanswered, however.

I'm sure they are, however, never seen anything I couldn't identify in the sky either day or night so must be looking at the ground too much. Who is probably humanity (black projects) rather than alien, who knows, one day i may be astounded with my own eyes rather than Hollywood and still think black projects

CbG

originally posted by: corblimeyguvnor

Who is probably humanity (black projects) rather than alien

I like your observation (we're talking about those 5-10% after all) and it begs another question - why so secretive. They can have it but we can't because they want control doesn't really cut it because intelligent people will always be capable of controlling gullible ones. It's how nature works. I think it's mostly humanity as well, but I have a feeling that there's something underneath the cover that really is terrifying and I wouldn't call it alien. That would explain the secrecy. Maybe we really wouldn't be able to handle the truth.

Also, I'm not sure whether I want to say "Hope you see one since you haven't"

EDIT TO ADD - I still don't get how such technology will ruin the economical ladder and get rich people to lose control, people won't stop working at offices and McDonalds or going on Facebook if there's an ultra fast way of travelling through the atmosphere and below water. There are ways of making huge profit from this technology, even if we haven't ran out of petrol yet. And both doesn't necessarily cancel each other. I mean, people fly planes but some still use the train.

There is a certain level of woo, just enough to "control" who we are. Who or what that is, is beyond me.

Than there are those who embody those/that for the sake of furthering their control. Almost like a middle man.

There is a reason why the world's elite and secret societies in one form or another seek esoteric or occultist practices.

Think about this. The who's who of this planet doesn't go around worshiping aliens. They worship something else. ....just saying.

a reply to: ch1n1t0

Well it's obvious you put some thought into the post so S&F for not just posting a link, YT vid or a cut and paste job from somewhere else.

* the UFO phenomenon has evolved along with humankind since the 40s, both in the way UFOs interact and are interpreted by the populace and the way they appear (comparing the classic mid 20th century flying saucers with more modern black triangles, chevrons, modular craft breaking apart and joining together);

The UFO phenomenon has also produced little more than lights in the sky since the Cold War ended. I don't think there is a coincidence there. It doesn't explain every sighting of course. But we are pretty much resigned to mainly lights in the sky, fake CGI and the odd dubious 'whistleblower' stories in the 21st century.

the technology behind UFOs isn't all that advanced - we humans can grasp the concepts and possible propulsion systems allowing for such flight behavior, although we can't yet reach these technically. Although I'm not sure who pointed this out but UFOs are about 40-50 years ahead of what we are officially capable of today. Also, are pretty far from FTL travel technology.

Sorry no idea who said that. But be wary of assuming all UFOs must have the same explanation. Not every death was caused by a murderer!

Most of you know that the recent pushes towards the existence of a secret space program have gained a lot of traction and it's a very likely explanation, indeed.

Other than a few top secret missions like this one then I don't see any evidence for a Secret Space Program beyond people telling us tall stories or painting theories and opinions as fact.

originally posted by: ch1n1t0
I'm not going to be entertaining you with photos, youtube videos, or particular accounts. I want to tickle your brain and receive feedback as well in the following experiment.

UFOs are real, there's no question about it. The Who remains unanswered, however.

Now... what am I missing? Which questions haven't I asked?

Interesting thread ... of course many questions will probably remain unanswered, especially the question of who they are. But if they are descendants of an ET civilzation then an important question would be:

Why has there been no open, official contact? If they are thousands or millions of years ahead of us, then we might also ask: would there be any advantage for them to have direct contact with us? Or would they perhaps prefer to just observe and interact occasionally on a small scale?

And what could be the downsides of intruding in our ecosystem and economies, especially when considering that their technology would be far superior? We just emerged from the stone age, literally speaking, and some decades ago we were at the brink of destroying ourselves and the entire planet ... if you were ET, would you say: "Hey guys, here's how to make a zero-energy device and all your problems are solved"? IMO it's not inconceivable that there would be alliances and rebellions, shifts in power and possibly a destabilization due to the many ways in which their influence might affect our societies (just look how we destabilize ourselves as a species in various conflicts). But perhaps I'm wrong and all would turn out well despite the odds.

However, many aspects of the UFO phenomenon seem to be rather consistent with the notion of a civilization observing us at a distance while conceiling who they are and what their objectives might be ...

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: ch1n1t0

Sorry no idea who said that. But be wary of assuming all UFOs must have the same explanation. Not every death was caused by a murderer!

Greets mirageman, I was hoping you'd chime in an opinion. I absolutely agree that you can't hit all UFOs with one bullet. That was the reason why I'm concentrating mostly on the saucer/triangle/technological craft flaps that share more than a few things in common and not high strangeness cases.

Good point about the Cold War. But I can reassure you - there are current day UFO flaps, they are just not that centralized anymore (in terms of being over the States). Thing is, the pattern has changed massively since then. Just a thought you raised, I'm Bulgarian, prior to '89 Bulgaria was East to the iron curtain. Although there is history of folklore about channeling, aliens, psychics, fairies and many Bulgarians were prone to believing whatever is fringe and "alternative" and paranormal, yet, there aren't UFO sightings prior to '89. But there was a UFO flap between 2009 and 2011 in Bulgaria and I happened to be in the middle of it.

Ever since the otherworlders have visited our planet...it's almost a foregone conclusion that they have FTL technology --- And I would tend to speculate...that these star travelers are way far advanced than us (technologically speaking) than any 40 or 50 years ---- Say...one thousand years advanced than us --- as a conservative ballpark estimate.

a reply to: jeep3r

I appreciate your input jeep3r. I agree with some of the points that you made, but I want to reflect on this particular sentence - "many aspects of the UFO phenomenon seem to be rather consistent with the notion of a civilization observing us at a distance". It's what they want you think, that it's from a distance. But, really, imo, if there's something further than hidden human tech behind UFOs, then the original culprits have been here all along Ask yourself this, why does it have to be ET at all? Who said it was ET first? (me thinks the media, which is controlled by whom?) How much of our oceans have we explored?

a reply to: Rosinitiate

So true. Thing is, they probably don't even realize what exactly they're worshiping. It seems that we're talking about some largely deceiving a$$es.

a reply to: ch1n1t0
Great Thread! S&F, there is a lot of information in the past and present and if people take the time to learn the vastness of our universe there is no way we are the only civilization around. Probably in a radius of 50 Light Years but just the Milky Way galaxy is 70,000 LY across!!!
To me the piece of the puzzle that 'did it' was watching the TV show Stargate SG-1 and no I'm not waiting for the POTUS to go on TV and say "Aliens are Real" he most probably is out of loop and on a need to know basis, you gotta go with the pieces of the puzzle and make your own conclusions.
And yes Stargate SG-1 is only a tv show but it gives you a glimpse of how the military branches, the secret & powerful ones, the Politicians with influence and Private enterprise interact with each other with a no-holes barred and a total disregard to the sheeple.

a reply to: ch1n1t0

You hinted at this, however one of the questions I haven't heard is: Is it possible that at least some of the entities that we characterize as EBEs or ETs are creatures that were inhabiting the Earth before human beings evolved into the zone of self-awareness?

In other words, were some of "them" here before us? It might help explain the ramping up of sightings recorded after nuclear bomb testing.

a reply to: ch1n1t0


Actually, while the UFO presence has been documented repeatedly with common procedures for over half a century, the only real question that remains is not the "who" but the WHY.

Human minds are so conceited in their point of narrow view of thinking about ETs. They never really get into the nitty-gritty of what they are doing that is wrong. They can do that, but the pressures on them to maintain the status quo of human existence is over-whelming to most one and all. They must change that attitude about themselves to eventually shake hands, even if as lower caste partners, with vastly superior alien races.

I could spend all day trying to explain how humans fail to conceptualize where they got off track. As conscious entities they should be reaching for a higher state of being rather than being caught in the human rat race of what we variously know as living. But most readers, even here on ATS don't want to hear it. They will reject that manner of thinking outright. Those that would tend to understand are those folks that are true meditators that have found a depth of themselves. Unfortunately, that talent is truly incapable of being shared with others that know the process not and largely disallow it. Deep meditation is just the beginning, the doorway, of the understanding of human destiny.

As we argue, the world is being transformed by direction actions that were unknown before. The spirit of the Earth has been recognized as valid and we should respect it in anyway that we can. For example, the UN Agenda 21 is a broad, stark plan to bring that whole concept into focus as a environmental necessity if we are to save the planet and ourselves. On the entirely human level, the push behind what is termed as Political Correctness is a conscious shifting of physical cues in our daily world to a more esoteric position vowing to value the consciousness of our minds and the minds of others without the drapery of the common influences of the nouns and verbs of language or physical adorations of things and even bodies. Folks, governments are forcing these changes in many subtle ways. Some of them are aware of what the UFO truly offers and the rewards are far greater than physical things. --Would a government do that, cutting itself off at the knees? Yes, if the order came down from on high that it be done. It is as if the old-fashioned God has speaking down to humanity.

I suffer greatly from being able to more concisely put into words what is happening. What I do ask is to not take my word for what I say is happening, but to look around, study and self-reflect. The coming of the UFO mean a whole lot more to humanity than high technology. That which is being awakened in some individuals is a powerful force and it will eventually crush the animal-brained humans that linger behind wanting to maintain everything as it has been in most all of human history. I hate to borrow Obama's '08 slogan, but it is "Time for Change."

double-post.


Actually this wasn't a double post. Probably it was the best thought out and most detailed post I ever wrote. I have lost it, unfortunately. Let me drown the sorrow and I'll repost it...

originally posted by: ch1n1t0
a reply to: Joneselius

Meant it as in no question about the existence of flying physical objects defying current technological standards, of course, taking away meteors, satellites, lanterns, blirds, stars and other such. The existence of these is something widely accepted on ATS (even ATS's greatly known skeptics know there is some merit to the phenomenon, therefore they show interest in it, ask Phage if you will).

Sorry but many of the claims regarding objects defying current technical standards are down to ASSUMPTIONS made by people in error.

Many members have posted photos/videos and links to others on the internet youtube etc with claims like the object travelled at x thousand miles an hour must be x feet in size because ...etc

YOU cant work out speed unless you actually KNOW accurate information to compare the object with ie it's distance or size so you can work other things out.

We have black dots on daytime pictures/videos and dots of light on nightime pictures/videos claimed to be ufo's.

If you have information on the camera/lens exposre etc and approx distance of main object it was focused on these other objects in daytime images/videos often not noticed until later can be shown to be objects very close to the camera and are out of focus due to depth of field .

Out there there has to be other life it's a numbers game but does Mog from Zog visit Earth I don't think so.

a reply to: wmd_2008

Hey WMD, another poster I was looking forward to joining us here.

I do agree on the most part of your post, especially the fact that there is no strong evidence that ET has visited us, just hearsay and convoluted official stories.

I also do agree with you that especially nowadays photo evidence and current day cases are pretty much lights in the sky that people have real difficulty stating what the real characteristics are. It's true that it's impossible knowing exact speeds when you don't know size, distance or altitude.

Let me share a bit from my past - what really lit the candle for my UFO interest was my experience in 2010. I can't say much and have zero evidence (the phone camera that we had was simply not capable of taking any clear photos) but here's what we saw for a length of 6 hours - about 25 objects, some far, a few very near, 90% of them were just faint lights dancing with one another, many of them just hovering in one place at times. All in all, nothing that strange and no mind-blowing speeds were shown, though some of the "dancing" was quite cool and in the eyes of someone who has never been to an airshow - weird. Keep in mind that I'm more than prone to errors, and so is any person in a situation like ours, I do take this into account and have kept it in mind ever since 2010.

However, what really makes our sighting weird is the fact these made no sound. Of course, if it was only lights in the sky, I wouldn't be here and wouldn't be spending a good amount of time studying the UFO phenomenon, simply because I wouldn't really say these lights were all that unexplainable. The two things that make me pretty certain we saw non-standard tech is 1 - no sound was made AT ALL and 2 - we saw two physical craft. (no, I don't think we saw aliens, this thread is not about aliens at all, this thread is more about how the aliens is a comforting hypothesis for those who want to keep UFO tech under wraps). From the two physical craft that we saw, one we saw as clear as day because it passed between our point of view and a nearby town which was lit, therefore we could observe the shape and movement of the craft.

The craft was a perfect triangle with even sides, 3 red lights in the corners and a faint white one in the center. It didn't move like, say a B-2 bomber does, rather than it's body was oriented perpendicular to the horizon and yet, it was moving in a horizontal direction. ( | ------- > ). Also, it rotated on even intervals around it's center quite rapidly while it was moving away. And it didn't make any sound! Now when I think about it, if we could take a photo of that one, even with the crappy cam we had, we would probably have one of the best photo evidence of these triangular craft. But this happened around the 3rd hour of our lengthy sighting, we already quit trying to take photos during after the first hour of noticing these craft around us and trying to take photos of them.

In any case, I'm not saying aliens, I'm very much against this thesis nowadays. But, please, if anyone can explain away a silent physical craft moving in this particular manner with normal modern tech, feel free to let me know! I've been going in circles with this whole UFO thing due to our sighting for 6 years now and it's getting ridiculous already.

a reply to: ch1n1t0

Note to add - these same craft were seen in the same area between 2009 and 2011, probably about 6-8 times, by multiple witnesses (about couple of hundred, when combining all sightings that I'm aware of) who found their flight characteristics to be out of the ordinary and were nothing that was seen before, or after said time period.

This whole story begs a thread of its own, but the current one isn't focused on this. With the upper-mentioned, I want to state that, yes, nowadays people get easily confused by what they see in the sky. Unfortunately, due to a couple of facts, what we saw is most definitely not regular tech (unless anyone could point me to possible explanations) and therefore, I'm on this quest for questions and answers. Thanks for all the input so far, I will rewrite the post that I lost yesterday and people will get my stance easier. And all feedback is welcome, so don't hesitate to join. Just keep in mind, we're not talking ET here, we're talking the core of the UFO phenomenon, and my bias is that ET is a story created and pushed without a question. Question is, what are they hiding with these ET allegations, starting in the 40s - is it their own technological advancement or is it something scarier...

originally posted by: argentus
a reply to: ch1n1t0

You hinted at this, however one of the questions I haven't heard is: Is it possible that at least some of the entities that we characterize as EBEs or ETs are creatures that were inhabiting the Earth before human beings evolved into the zone of self-awareness?

In other words, were some of "them" here before us? It might help explain the ramping up of sightings recorded after nuclear bomb testing.

I was addressing this post, when I got confused and lost a whole wall of text yesterday.

I'll say it bluntly - the question you ask is exactly what resonates in my head nowadays as well. Actually, if you put all the bulletpoints that I've listed in the OP together, you'd see that it is exactly what I'm pointing to, myself.

Again, if I were Jimmy Carter and got briefed on UFOs, I don't think aliens would cause me to weep. It's something much scarier. That's if he was told the truth. The rabbit hole is pretty convoluted and never ending, no? Most people talk about the culprits landing on the White House lawn and that would do it for them. Too bad for me I'm not as easily convinced.