Do you support socialism with government or without government?

Do you support socialism with government or without government?

If you support socialism you realize socialism cost money/resources/time. How do you fund a socialist economy?
If I don't pay taxes will you send an armed posse to jail me because I won't pay my extortion/"insurance" money?
Can I opt out of paying the socialist mob cut if I want to or not?
If I own a business why do business in a country that robs me of 39% of my income?

Do you think all taxes should be totally voluntary?

a reply to: John_Rodger_Cornman

I believe its any mans obligation to pay taxes, cause without the state and its citizens, who you gonna sell it to?

a reply to: John_Rodger_Cornman

If I don't pay taxes will you send an armed posse to jail me because I won't pay my extortion/"insurance" money?

Funny. That happens with capitalism as well.

a reply to: John_Rodger_Cornman

The Founding Fathers revolted over tax higher than ten percent.

Taxes are only to be collected in time of war and collected by the government, not your employer.

A true Socialist state would not depend on taxes. The government would have the money and provide for the people.In a mythical , magical true Socialist state.Aint gonna happen.

a reply to: John_Rodger_Cornman

I'll take, "neither, for 500 Alex"...

originally posted by: John_Rodger_Cornman
Do you support socialism with government or without government?

With government.

originally posted by: John_Rodger_Cornman
If you support socialism you realize socialism cost money/resources/time. How do you fund a socialist economy?

Taxes. I already pay closer to 30 percent.

originally posted by: John_Rodger_Cornman
If I don't pay taxes will you send an armed posse to jail me because I won't pay my extortion/"insurance" money?

Most likely, exact same as now I suppose?

originally posted by: John_Rodger_Cornman
Can I opt out of paying the socialist mob cut if I want to or not?

Yes, don't use any public services/infrastructure (roads, police etc..). That's impossible, so just leave.

originally posted by: John_Rodger_Cornman
If I own a business why do business in a country that robs me of 39% of my income?

Should you get to decide how much you get 'robbed'?

originally posted by: John_Rodger_Cornman
Do you think all taxes should be totally voluntary?

No.

It's posts such as the OP's that make me shake my head and laugh.

People often talk about how Bernie has no grip on economics, and then threads like these pop up.

Ah - thanks for the morning laugh, champ.



George Washington also formed a central bank with a higher tax rate than the "evil monarchs," they were revolting against. The more you know.

a reply to: RomeByFire

People often talk about how Bernie has no grip on economics

I think those people don't give Bernie enough credit.
I think he probably has a good enough grip on economics, but how can you expect him to sell his plan if he tells the truth????

of course it would need a government.
you're obviously massively uninformed, so here is a quick rundown.
the government would own everything, no private companies at all.
everyone working would, therefore, work for the government who, pay everyone the same, so no rich and no poor.
no banks, no stocks and shares, and no taxes as the government would subsidise the unable to work.
so working for a better country with no class system being the goal of socialism.
communism as above but ultimately a society with no money, marx pointed to a voucher system(?)!
india claims to have a socialist government, however there are private companies, so it isnt.
russia and china did claim to have communist style governments but, forced working of millions to death means, that they weren't.

a reply to: intrptr

Sorry, no.

The founders "revolted" against the notion of taxation without representation.

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: RomeByFire

People often talk about how Bernie has no grip on economics

I think those people don't give Bernie enough credit.
I think he probably has a good enough grip on economics, but how can you expect him to sell his plan if he tells the truth????

Bernie sounds reasonable enough to me, I'm of the impression that too many fellow ATS'ers have taken the Kool-Aid so to speak regarding the "big bad socialist boogeyman who is gonna take your money," rhetoric that's peddled.

But hey... Trump and his supporters want a free wall, so them whining about others who propose "free stuff," when it's not even about free stuff, it's comedic gold.

a reply to: John_Rodger_Cornman

Socialism is the antithesis of individuality.

So I would never choose socialism.

a reply to: John_Rodger_Cornman

Do you support socialism with government or without government?

Both. Governments are necessary to have anything resembling an advanced civilization (which is my end goal).

If you support socialism you realize socialism cost money/resources/time. How do you fund a socialist economy?

Socialism is diverse and can be funded through different ways. The most obvious is from contributions by its members. But another way is through the value of its created goods. As in, if a town is sitting on top of $2 billion worth of gold deposits, the sales of gold will fund it. Same for oil, precious stones, agriculture and livestock, etc. Of course, this is assuming we're in a culture that has a mix of socialism and capitalism.

In a true socialist society, the community creates the goods that are needed by its members. Think of the community that comes together to place sandbags when flooding is expected. Or the small communities where family members, friends, and neighbors work together on a house project (or to build a fence or to help someone move or whatever). This is actually where it gets closer to communism on the scale, so I'll leave it at this.

If I don't pay taxes will you send an armed posse to jail me because I won't pay my extortion/"insurance" money?

Someone else already mentioned this, but this happens in every "nation", kingdom", "republic", etc. People still had to pay tributes, be it percentages of their produced goods, mandatory service for the State, or whatever.

Though in my ideal socialist utopias, you would be able to opt out. However, there's a catch to this. It's not fair to the other members of the utopia if you can opt out of contributing to the community while still receiving the perks of it. So if you really opt out, you're also opting out of those services, goods, and infrastructures. Though I also believe there are other ways to contribute, such as working part time for one of our proposed agencies. Or maybe the people who opt out would have to purchase "tickets" to enter the utopia, like buying a 2 day pass to Disney World lol. But they're treated just like everyone else as long as their ticket is valid (I'm still working on that one).

If I own a business why do business in a country that robs me of 39% of my income?

Good question. If you want to do business somewhere, you have to follow its laws. If you don't want to follow the laws of a place, then don't do business there. Isn't that one of the basic "free market" principles?

a reply to: RomeByFire

But hey... Trump and his supporters want a free wall, so them whining about others who propose "free stuff," when it's not even about free stuff, it's comedic gold.

LOL True true true.

a reply to: John_Rodger_Cornman

Socialism works fabulously IF the population size is relatively tiny, and all participants are willing and able to do "their fair share."

Take my neighborhood--I'm good friends with a few of my neighbors, and we all trade off things (time, effort, tools, meals, etc.) on a willing basis so that the other doesn't always have to buy the tool, or take time off to be home with their child, or pay someone to mow their grass, etc.

Communes--while they all tend to break up--are a decent example of that. They work well until a few start rebelling against the whole idea of doing their fair share of the work.

But, when you expand that population to the size of states and countries, you inherit terrible outcomes because not everybody is willing to pull their own weight, as well as not everyone wants to rely on others for things that they can do for themselves (and often times do it better). The government will always run at on an efficiency deficit, costing more than it should and taking more money than it needs, leaving the citizens with less and less as time goes on.

I could go on and on as to why and how socialist nations tend to collapse or go super-corrupt, but judging by the tone of your OP, you already understand that.

My point is that socialist ideals are great for tribes and small communities and neighborhoods and circles of friend, but get beyond those sizes, and start doing it forcefully, and it all falls apart, often times with devastating consequences.

originally posted by: RomeByFire

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: RomeByFire

People often talk about how Bernie has no grip on economics

I think those people don't give Bernie enough credit.
I think he probably has a good enough grip on economics, but how can you expect him to sell his plan if he tells the truth????

Bernie sounds reasonable enough to me, I'm of the impression that too many fellow ATS'ers have taken the Kool-Aid so to speak regarding the "big bad socialist boogeyman who is gonna take your money," rhetoric that's peddled.

But hey... Trump and his supporters want a free wall, so them whining about others who propose "free stuff," when it's not even about free stuff, it's comedic gold.

There is no free lunch, period.
Each of these crappy candidates available to us may have some good ideas, but on the whole they are either deluded if they believe their own BS, or they are lying to us.... or in the case of Hillary, they are powerhungry criminals.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Hey, you can always advocate my socialist utopias. My plan is to use as much automation as possible to not only fill in the "efficiency deficit", but to create an overabundance of goods and services! As in, the larger it gets, the more the economy of scale increases the surpluses. Of course, once the surpluses get get large enough, the resources and automation can be shifted over to another purpose.

Obviously this idea still has its kinks. But I think robotics and automation can finally make large scale socialism work without requiring everyone to chip in.

a reply to: John_Rodger_Cornman

People surely are not complaining about all the tax money which is being spent on the military, foreign aid, bailing out banks and corporate welfare. I think the majority of people wouldn't mind paying taxes if they felt a direct benefit from it. Maybe if we cut back or eliminate some of this wasteful government spending, taxpayers can benefit directly from their tax dollars. Our country was founded on the basis of Government for and by the people. Not by Government for Corporate, Wall Street and Foreign interests!

Currently, corporations are benefiting from a technically skilled and educated public to manage their businesses, improve their products, quality and profit margins. They don't pay a dime toward helping to finance college education yet reap the benefits from all of it. Back in the day, corporations always stressed company loyalty. Today, they could care less about their employees and will jump at the chance to increase their profit margins by sending manufacturing jobs to Mexico and overseas for cheap labor and poor quality.

Businesses are paying a lot more on healthcare because healthcare premiums and costs are set by the insurance industry. Doctors can't even treat patients without the approval of Insurance companies! My doctor complains about it all the time! Private individuals think having to pay higher taxes to cover healthcare would be more than if they were stuck paying $300 - $700 a month on premiums? I don't think so. Capitalism does not solve the high cost of healthcare nor does it provide a basic right for people to preserve their own life. Although some people don't think preserving and saving's one's own life is not a basic right. Their thoughts are, they should just kick people to the curb when they don't have health Insurance coverage. That's the uncaring truth of capitalism. Socialism is caring for your fellow man.

The U.S. already employs socialism and capitalism! The socialism programs such as Social Security and Medicare are extremely popular. Without social security, most workers would not even have a pension? Have you ever had a mother of father in a nursing home? Without Medicare and Medicaid, nobody would be able to afford to take care of the elderly! Costs can range anywhere from $3,000 to over $10,000 a month for personal care!! Unless you're sitting on million dollar nest egg, you're screwed without Medicare! My mother is currently going through her life savings before Medicare kicks in. She's been in assisted living since 2011 and had a lot saved and invested. This will be her last year before her funds run out. Capitalism does not come close to solving this problem!

Welfare is also a social program that serves as a safety net for everyone. Nobody knows when they're going to fall on tough times. How many people in this country have filed for bankruptcy? It's nice to know, you have some help while you can get back on your feet. Sure there are people who take advantage of it, and the laws should address that. The government should also be getting something back for that money in the form of working along side city, park and street crews.

Many people want to compare Socialism with Communism, but it's really nothing but fear mongering. Socialism is an economic system which can exist with any political system. It can exist along with Capitalism. Socialism maintains the concept of personal property ownership, while communism removes it. Communism is both a political and economic system, Socialism is not. Also, Socialism maintains personal choice when it comes to education and religion. Socialist programs have proven themselves to be beneficial for many European and Scandinavian countries.

I have a relative who was once a U.S. citizen and than married a Canadian and now is a Canada citizen. He loves their healthcare system and says all the bad press about it in the U.S. is simply propaganda. I would rather believe someone who has directly experienced both systems than people who are just trying to protect the Insurance companies.

No taxes should not be voluntary, because they benefit all. Just because you may be sitting on a nest egg, doesn't mean you or your children may need to take advantage of it. Taxes for healthcare benefits all, including the rich. I just don't get people who act like the weight of taxes is a bear only on their shoulders. We all pay into it and it's there to help out all citizens! The tax system just needs to be restructured and government waste eliminated. We also need to hold government accountable for embezzling funds from programs that directly benefit citizens. There should also be a balance budget law.

originally posted by: 0zzymand0s
a reply to: intrptr

Sorry, no.

The founders "revolted" against the notion of taxation without representation.

That too.

"No", what? There was no progressive permanent taxation except in war time and then only ten percent. There was no fiat currency either, or "federal" Reserve but thats another long gone tenant (like the notion of limited government) of the original established constitutional government.