The Dead Sea Scrolls: James vs Paul

a reply to: newnature1

I respect your choice and faith, since I respect all people's right to choice, but you still haven't answered my questions. ..long paragraphs regarding your suppositions backed up by your own definition of scripture, still doesn't rectify your statements with my questions, can you answer my questions?

originally posted by: BlueJacket
a reply to: newnature1

I respect your choice and faith, since I respect all people's right to choice, but you still haven't answered my questions. ..long paragraphs regarding your suppositions backed up by your own definition of scripture, still doesn't rectify your statements with my questions, can you answer my questions?

You can't side step what I wrote. Your question were answered very nicely and to the point. Paul is Paul, nobody goes around Paul.

a reply to: newnature1

Lol, I go far around Paul, and no you didn't answer my questions, but my goal was to see if someone could convince me based on reason to change my mind...you're in fine company, but lacking any meat on the bone for me my friend. ...guess I'm going to hell in your world and you're just going to have to repeat the grade in mine.

No harm intended.

a reply to: Solarmania

As I told you before if you can't say my name right then don't say it. You are the worst of the worst. How many accounts do you have now 30? You do know you are in clear violation of ATS T&C using multiple accounts to login once you have been banned?

There were three James before Christ's brother ever got into the picture. The writer of James is the bother of John who was martyred right after penning the letter when he and Peter were going to go into Asia to visit them in Babylon. Peter made it according to his letters.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

All you did was say the book of James was written by a different James, which is unsubstantiated by you and anyone who says it. It sure reads like it was written by James the Just, it is grouped with the other two of the three pillars of the church so I have every reason to believe it was written by James the brother of Jesus and no reason to believe you.

You came like a lion to a gazelle harping about who wrote the book of James when the book of James has NOTHING to do with this thread and I never mentioned it once.

But it was written by James the Just and you can make unsubstantiated claims til your blue in the face, nobody cares or believes you without proof.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

And citing James talking about the 12 tribes scattered abroad is not proof because the tribes were scattered when Babylon brought 2 of the ten tribes to Babylon and Assyria the other ten so he isnt talking about the expulsion of 70 ad my friend, that was only two tribes because the rest were already considered lost. Judah and Benjamin were the two remaining tribes in 70ad which is weird because Paul is from, he claims, the tribe of Benjamin the wolf.

"Beware the wolf of the tribe of Benjamin."

Hmm.

originally posted by: BlueJacket
a reply to: Solarmania

I appreciate what you wrote. I have always had a problem with Paul, I appreciate the links and will indulge my curiosity and peruse them when I have time.

Thank you

It's my pleasure. They are good links and you should be able to squeeze a lot of information out of them and the dss link has the Eisenman translation of the previously(long time ago, really) unpublished dead sea scrolls as well.

a reply to: Padawan Solarmania

Man another Paul thread. Do you have an obsession with Paul? You should buy a card board cut out, that may do the trick.

So do you hold the Dead Sea scroll as more holy than the Bible? What other texts do you hold over the Bible. Also what books of the Bible do you give credence?

Also the website of Paul hating gets their information out of the NKJV. A Bible you have trashed on many occasions.
Why follow the critics who use a Bible you reject to make their opinion?

This proves you dont care where the information comes from, if you dont like it, you reject it with venomous hate. Take about cherry picking!

a reply to: newnature1

Actually, the word Christian was first used at Antioch. I think it's in Paul's writings, but I am not 100% certain, like 99%, but Christian applies to the non Israelite followers as the Israelites didn't have a name for the Messianic church. They just called it "The Way" and they called Paul's doctrine "that way."

The Judean Israelites, Messianic or otherwise were expelled from Judea and Roman Christianity with its absorbed paganism and universal philosophy grew from a small cult of Paul followers who reluctantly held the apostolic writings as inspired, and the Gospels, but favored highly the Pauline epistles. Eusebius Idolized Paul.

I watched a documentary today about Masada, the last stronghold of the surviving Israelites atop a plateau. Zealots and Sicari and Essenes all banded together and held off the Romans until they built a wall around the plateau and trapped them, Josephus writes that the last 30 or so people commited suicide, but no bodies have been found to verify.

But Josephus writes that the downfall of his people the Israelites was apocalyptic obsession, which fits with what the Dead Sea Scrolls are about in certain writings like the war scroll.

They called the Romans Kittim and planned to destroy them but it was not to be.

a reply to: coomba98

Man another Paul thread. Do you have an obsession with Paul? You should buy a card board cut out, that may do the trick.

You are right coomba98. This guy is a wealth of information. That is if you like videos that do your own thinking and talking. Have read this R.H. Eisenman some time back and he is truly mentally challenged.

One good example is that he claims that the teacher of righteousness from the dead sea scrolls of several hundred years prior to the birth of Christ was none other than James the brother of Jesus. In other words Jesus and James existed some 200 years before they existed. Then Eisenman teams up with the liar from Australia named Thiering who in the opinions of most academia is absolutely insane. And I do mean insane. They both are in this Jesus never died movement which can never be considered sane in the least. But you do have to give these guys credit. They know how to play these Padawan's.

a reply to: Solarmania

but look who is still here and who is not.

this tells us a deeper truth about you.

I wonder what name you will take next?

a reply to: ElementalFreeze
you never cease to amaze Solarmania

a reply to: Seede


Ahh, an ats user who calls a respected author, scholar and professor mentally challenged.

How surprising!

I would wager that you are not a fan because you don't like what he says. I would win that bet.

As far as James being the teacher of Righteousness and your claim that the DSS are hundreds of years before Christ, they span the course of hundreds of years worth of texts and many of the teachings and traditions are so close to what the New Testament teaches that it is entirely possible that, and generally believed, that the DSS are in part documents if the "Essene" Qumran community of which James was the Zaddik.

Zaddik means righteous or just, and that is why he is called James the Just.

You might want to actually read the 70 plus extra biblical documents themselves before making opinionated statements about subjects you have no real knowledge.

a reply to: Seede

I have been reading the extra biblical Dead Sea Scrolls for years and and have always felt that they came from the community that birthed the Messianic church and John the Baptist.

The teacher of Righteousness could be a title passed on from leader to leader and not necessarily just James. But one thing that is certain is that the community who stored them evidently was destroyed and the event that makes the most sense is the Israelite rebellion of AD 70 (roughly) that Josephus writes was the result of apocalyptic obsession on the part of the Jews.

That fits perfectly with the contents of the scrolls, especially the War Scroll. I see no other reason for abandoning your library of scripture than fleeing for your life or dying in the rebellion.

You don't have the knowledge of the scrolls to be making judgement on the work of a legitimate scholar. If you think you are smarter then write your own books about it. I'm not Professor Eisenman but his aggressive pursuit to liberate access to the scrolls is the reason the unpublished material got translated and published. We owe him thanks for that, regardless of your opinion on his work.

What is your great contribution to society?

a reply to: Seede

I have been reading the extra biblical Dead Sea Scrolls for years and and have always felt that they came from the community that birthed the Messianic church and John the Baptist.

The teacher of Righteousness could be a title passed on from leader to leader and not necessarily just James. But one thing that is certain is that the community who stored them evidently was destroyed and the event that makes the most sense is the Israelite rebellion of AD 70 (roughly) that Josephus writes was the result of apocalyptic obsession on the part of the Jews.

That fits perfectly with the contents of the scrolls, especially the War Scroll. I see no other reason for abandoning your library of scripture than fleeing for your life or dying in the rebellion.

You don't have the knowledge of the scrolls to be making judgement on the work of a legitimate scholar. If you think you are smarter then write your own books about it. I'm not Professor Eisenman but his aggressive pursuit to liberate access to the scrolls is the reason the unpublished material got translated and published. We owe him thanks for that, regardless of your opinion on his work.

What is your great contribution to society?

a reply to: Seede

The War Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls is an end times kill list with the Kittim(Romans) at the top of the list. This sounds like it was written sometime around the rebellion of AD 70 and it seems like the attitude that led to their demise. The legend of the peaceful Nazarenes/Essenes/Zaddikim are weakened by this particular scroll that seems more like a united Israel with Zealots and Ebionites and the Hassidim all uniting ready to take down Rome.

Only, they got annihilated by the mighty Roman army and their library would remain a secret for 2000 years because nobody was alive who knew about it.

I say it was writings from 200BC, like you said but also current documents from before the 70 rebellion. This seems likely to me as the language of the New Testament is seen often in the scrolls.

You are incorrect to state that they are from 200BC and no later. 200BC is just the earliest documents like the biblical books. But the Messianic prophetic and Apocalyptic documents are from closer to the time of James who may or may not be referenced in the scrolls. It seems that they don't use certain people's names, from what I have noticed they don't use names for living people in the scrolls.

a reply to: ElementalFreeze

you have revealed yourself to be all the other user accounts via your words and posts.

You are a deceiver and not worthy of ATS in violating their T&C's.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I forgive you, for you know not what you do.

But you must stop your serpent/wolf ways. You are full of hate, so angry that what other people do on the internet is somehow your concern and from what I can gather you are constantly running around calling people decievers and accusing them of being other people because in your limited capacity for logic you think that people who have similar interests must all be the same person in a grande plot to decieve the (already decieved) masses.

If I wanted people to be decieved I would go with the flow and not make any noise in life and not do what I can to snap people out of their slumber.

I would do absolutely nothing if I wanted people to be decieved because they/we all are under one form of deception or another.

Obsessed much?

a reply to: ElementalFreeze

get a life already. We all know who and what you are.

a reply to: ElementalFreeze
a reply to: Seede

Ahh, an ats user who calls a respected author, scholar and professor mentally challenged. How surprising! I would wager that you are not a fan because you don't like what he says. I would win that bet.

The man is a very educated Kook. We have many universities full of the same. Of course that is my opinion just as you may admire this man is your prerogative.

Quote
The writers call themselves the Sons of Zadok (a hereditary line of Jewish priests established in the time of King David) and their great leader the Teacher of Righteousness. Their documents tell the story of a community that had retreated from mainstream Judaism and constructed a way of life utterly devoted to God. They believed they lived in the "end times", and were themselves both a witness to its cataclysms, and a voice that upheld eternal righteousness. They held their Teacher in deep reverence and maintained a faith in his mission against a Jerusalem priesthood which severely persecuted and apparently killed Him. Within the community there was also a large faction of dissent, led by a "Man of Lies". These traitors denied the Righteous Teacher and caused many of his followers to go astray.
Unquote
Source - www.shareintl.org...

The teacher of Righteousness could be a title passed on from leader to leader and not necessarily just James. But one thing that is certain is that the community who stored them evidently was destroyed and the event that makes the most sense is the Israelite rebellion of AD 70 (roughly) that Josephus writes was the result of apocalyptic obsession on the part of the Jews.

What you are saying in your rant is that it could be a title. Certainly it could be a title but neither you nor Eisenman can state that James was that teacher of righteousness. Regardless of how many books you read of the DSS, you nor your mentor can determine who the teacher of righteousness is or was. If James was the teacher of righteousness then show the source and not make a theological statement in defense of one who teaches from the pulpit of fiction. Your rendition may suite your own theology but it most certainly does not suite many others and it most certainly does not agree with the end time concept of what we see today.

Your anger in defense of your own theology does not make you right and it most certainly does not give you the right to pass judgement on my own intelligence. That shows your own ignorance. Now as you have made your case then show me the source of your understanding that the Nazarene James was the Jewish teacher of righteousness. Even in the theological field of understanding it is absolutely false. I could not care less of Eisenman's professional skills and that is not the issue here. It is his theological opinions that concern me and it is his theology that I am talking about. The need to somehow accredit his profession to his theology makes him a boy wonder does not fly in this reality and it also show me your own intent.