Capitalists - you really don't see a problem?

originally posted by: Dfairlite


Great response, so much substance!

Thanks!!

I recognize the evils of government have corrupted capitalims and that it was inevitable.

No, actually the evils of capitalism corrupted a perfectly fine democratic government. How would a democratic government corrupt capitalism? Socialist bandits were paying off politicians?!?!?.

Your not making sense.

monkey bean-counters were paying off politicians, with beans and junk bonds.

However, that doesn't mean socialism works or works better. It absolutely does not.

Capitalist democracies with socialist type central controls DO and ARE working. Canada, Austrailia and the UK. WINIING!!!

:p

History is replete with examples of massive socialist failings. And of the few that have remained somewhat afloat, that is all that they have done. What was the last major technological advancement made by denmark, norway, or sweden?

When you have a stable population growth relatively void of poverty and capitalist induced crack-babies whos parents earn profit for capitalists while in privately owned for-profit prisons, you dont really need "technological" advancements to sustain.

And here's some news to all of you who seem to believe that you can soak the rich and get something for nothing by going the "european socialist" route:
We have a higher corporate tax rate.
The middle class in the nordic countries pays ~30-40% income tax. Buffets secretary pays 15%, oh the humanity.
The top 10% in sweden pay 26% of the tax burden, in the US the top 10% pay 45% of it.

That is becuae you dont count the tax breaks that are given. Corporate lobbyists have made it possible to pay your work force next to nothing or at least well below a sustainable wage.

The working poor live off food stamps paid for by tax payers and this contributes directly to corporations bottom line.

Then you have capitalist corporations who spend billions (no taxes paid on this) on manipulative advertising that convince people that they need crappy made goods that break inside a year.

And the turn around on goods does not benefit the citizens of capitalism because the rich bean-counting capitalists made so much off prisons and drugs that the amount it cost them to make a politician ship all the jobs to a sweat shop over seas.

Capitalism brought us the highest levels of cancer ever seen on this earth per capita. Capitalism will not stop poisoning people till they are given a profitable alternative or handsomely subsidized by tax payers.

Capitalism destroyed the earth. Make any excuse you want. They will go down in history depicted as a fat slobby pigs but you and me both know its more like bean-counting monkey. Pigs are usefull.

a reply to: MALBOSIA

I agree that the form of capitalism we practice destroys and doesn't give or create.i like pieces of the free market, but without defining ethics or morals or business practices... When the only thing that matters is profit, no one wins. Inventions are not so great, society doesn't expand, jobs are sent to other countries.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: elysiumfire

Some people live with unicorns. Some people live in reality. Thats what I am learning from this thread.

I never would have guessed free market capitalists live in the same fantasy world as communists.

Sorry if I was too strident.

Paying taxes in one lump sum increases my garrulosity.

I wanted to explain the positions of free market economics. You don't have to choose it, but most people have never heard it.

Gov might become the name for various corporations that do specific tasks, like fact checking, cutomer satisfaction records, and notary type stuff. There would be no nebulous "we know best" ruling body.

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: Dfairlite


Great response, so much substance!

Thanks!!

I recognize the evils of government have corrupted capitalims and that it was inevitable.

No, actually the evils of capitalism corrupted a perfectly fine democratic government. How would a democratic government corrupt capitalism? Socialist bandits were paying off politicians?!?!?.

Your not making sense.

monkey bean-counters were paying off politicians, with beans and junk bonds.

However, that doesn't mean socialism works or works better. It absolutely does not.

Capitalist democracies with socialist type central controls DO and ARE working. Canada, Austrailia and the UK. WINIING!!!

:p

History is replete with examples of massive socialist failings. And of the few that have remained somewhat afloat, that is all that they have done. What was the last major technological advancement made by denmark, norway, or sweden?

When you have a stable population growth relatively void of poverty and capitalist induced crack-babies whos parents earn profit for capitalists while in privately owned for-profit prisons, you dont really need "technological" advancements to sustain.

And here's some news to all of you who seem to believe that you can soak the rich and get something for nothing by going the "european socialist" route:
We have a higher corporate tax rate.
The middle class in the nordic countries pays ~30-40% income tax. Buffets secretary pays 15%, oh the humanity.
The top 10% in sweden pay 26% of the tax burden, in the US the top 10% pay 45% of it.

That is becuae you dont count the tax breaks that are given. Corporate lobbyists have made it possible to pay your work force next to nothing or at least well below a sustainable wage.

The working poor live off food stamps paid for by tax payers and this contributes directly to corporations bottom line.

Then you have capitalist corporations who spend billions (no taxes paid on this) on manipulative advertising that convince people that they need crappy made goods that break inside a year.

And the turn around on goods does not benefit the citizens of capitalism because the rich bean-counting capitalists made so much off prisons and drugs that the amount it cost them to make a politician ship all the jobs to a sweat shop over seas.

Capitalism brought us the highest levels of cancer ever seen on this earth per capita. Capitalism will not stop poisoning people till they are given a profitable alternative or handsomely subsidized by tax payers.

Capitalism destroyed the earth. Make any excuse you want. They will go down in history depicted as a fat slobby pigs but you and me both know its more like bean-counting monkey. Pigs are usefull.

Lol you completely ignore the fact that those fine politicians accepted a payoff. There are two parties to this transaction of corruption, the guy buying off the politician and the politician. Without one party they other cannot get what it wants. And you realize in communist china (and any other communist/socialist country) the buy offs still happen, right? Your condemnation of freedom is so damn funny and ignorant, please keep the comedy coming!

Let's look at your logic:
"Canada, Austrailia and the UK. WINIING"

News flash, those economies are stagnant and terrible. 2% growth doesn't even keep up with inflation.

"When you have a stable population growth relatively void of poverty and capitalist induced crack-babies whos parents earn profit for capitalists while in privately owned for-profit prisons, you dont really need "technological" advancements to sustain."

Really, so you'd be fine in a country with no X-Ray machines, no MRI scanners, no computers, and no internet? By all means, move to the third world.

Your next four paragraphs are a completely incoherent stream of consciousness that says a lot about who I'm wasting time responding to.

"Capitalism brought us the highest levels of cancer ever seen on this earth per capita."

Capitalism also cured most of the deadly diseases that killed our species. But forget about that because capitalism will cure cancer in the next 20 years, then what will you complain about?

"Capitalism destroyed the earth. Make any excuse you want. They will go down in history depicted as a fat slobby pigs but you and me both know its more like bean-counting monkey. Pigs are usefull."

This was an excellent closing line because it really demonstrates how deranged you are. You refer to capitalism (an economic system) as "they" as if capitalism was a group of people. Then you go on to describe this group of people you dislike and claim "are capitalism". I really hope you seek mental help, you are in great need.

a reply to: elysiumfire

"No such thing as pure freedom, nor can a capitalist buy or sell whatever he likes to whomever he likes, certain things that can be made to be bought or sold are (rightly) highly regulated, requiring specific criteria to be met, or illegal to do so. So right away, you are in catastrophic error (and to think, the following poster believes you to be talking sense...you are, but it is nonsense). Capitalism, by its very mechanism, has to be regulated, otherwise, there would not be a world left on which it could capitalise"

First, yes I can buy or sell whatever I like to whomever I like. The law hasn't prevented the trafficking of drugs in the US, nor the exploitation of minors, nor organized crime.

And again you are at a false starting point. This line betrays you: "Capitalism, by its very mechanism, has to be regulated, otherwise, there would not be a world left on which it could capitalise". See, you're starting at the idea that if nothing were protected then everything would be destroyed for profit. But if you use a little brainpower and think it through to its logical conclusion you'll come to understand that profit != destroying yourself. Killing your customers doesn't help you profit.

"That's because you don't understand it yourself, and even if I didn't understand it, it doesn't automatically equate to me being wrong"

I've got a very good understanding of capitalist systems. The reason I make sense to semicollegiate is because he also understands economics and capitalism. You don't and it's obvious by the way you talk about it. Nothing wrong with not understanding something. There are plenty of things I don't understand, but economics and capitalism is not one of those areas. Seriously, just read up on some economics. The three names I provided earlier are a great starting point for understanding how and why things work the way the do.

"Capitalism isn't right for a society, because it always, without exception, unravels society by creating economic imbalances across the societal spectrum."

You love to demonstrate your economic ignorance for some reason. Why was capitalist America known as the land of opportunity? Because it provided the opportunity to be crushed under someone else's boot? Lol. Just use that brain of yours to think before you speak (or write). Why do millions flock to capitalist societies?

"I see, and because you have looked up these economic strategists, and done econ courses, you think you are entitled to lecture others and pontificate on capitalism's virtues? I would also caution you on adopting assumptions that others do not share the same level of knowledge as you. "

It's obvious when someone has similar or greater knowledge in an area such as economics, as I mentioned above.

"Let me ask you a question, and do me the courtesy of answering truthfully...do you think capitalism is harmful?"

Well that depends on how loaded the word harmful is. Everything is harmful (especially when not used as intended). But if we are being fair with the word harmful then no, capitalism isn't harmful in the long run.

a reply to: Dfairlite

You are saying the market is not a group of people?

Would the market exist without people?

I believe in the market being as free as possible.

What I have issue with is assuming the world will all play fair. You can argue "if they were only like this". That is not reasonable.

The market exists in a non perfect world and always will. When China as a government dumps product as a form of economic aggression and it does so at a lesser cost than the raw material itself in the US it does serious damage to industry and the corrections in the market will never happen. This requires the goverments to intervene. (Which it won't because we rely in the CPI to deal with inflation for the consumer)

The fact that people will not act within moral or ethical laws who have significant market resources require some limited regulations.

And yes it should be against the law to sell nukes or f-22 to North Korea. Some laws are necessary.

Free market idealist are as crazy as socialists.

There isn't just one way or the other. The rule of law is important. A completely unregulated market will never work to benefit the whole population.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
Lol you completely ignore the fact that those fine politicians accepted a payoff. There are two parties to this transaction of corruption, the guy buying off the politician and the politician. Without one party they other cannot get what it wants. And you realize in communist china (and any other communist/socialist country) the buy offs still happen, right? Your condemnation of freedom is so damn funny and ignorant, please keep the comedy coming!

Want some more comedy? China is a communist dictatorship and capitists sold out their own people and their jobs to China to make a profit.

If the politician was not from a 'have and have not' capitalist society he/she would have found no benifit or profit in selling out their people. Since the politician now "have" and the people he/she represents "have not", the politician is now a success and that is perfectly acceptable to nearly all "succesfull" people in a capitalist society.

Let's look at your logic:
"Canada, Austrailia and the UK. WINIING"

News flash, those economies are stagnant and terrible. 2% growth doesn't even keep up with inflation.

I think I would take Britains pound, Canada clean air and water and Austrailia population per square km over anything your selling.

Really, so you'd be fine in a country with no X-Ray machines

Invented by a physisist but of course taken advantage by capitists who thought it would be a cool way to sell shoes. You asked for comedy and it would be funny if it was not true.

no MRI scanners,

First theorized by Erik Odeblad from Sweden? Of course taken advantage of by capitalists that figured out it would help earn profits from the cancer they were causing.

no computers

Computers go back thousands of years. Nice try.

and no internet? By all means, move to the third world.

Ok Al Gore, tell us how capitalism created the internet.

Your next four paragraphs are a completely incoherent stream of consciousness that says a lot about who I'm wasting time responding to.

Oh I cant wait to hear your take on this. You have been so spot on till now.

This was an excellent closing line because it really demonstrates how deranged you are. You refer to capitalism (an economic system) as "they" as if capitalism was a group of people. Then you go on to describe this group of people you dislike and claim "are capitalism". I really hope you seek mental help, you are in great need.

Wait! That was it? That is what this has been boiling up to. I personified capitalism and I should be considered dangerous? Oh the horror!!!

I just want to address one more thing before I go

Capitalism also cured most of the deadly diseases that killed our species. But forget about that because capitalism will cure cancer in the next 20 years, then what will you complain about? 

Kid, thats what they told us 20 years ago. I call you a kid because if you were alive and concious of cancer 20 years ago you would be just as pissed as I am that all the money and research dumped into "cures" has only brought us more and more types of cancer. Go ahead and try and cure 1 form of cancer. There will be 10 more next year. All thanks to the blind greed of capitalism.

Tell me something. This couch I am sitting on schooling your ass... the chemical used to treat it were deamed to be within acceptable limits. What about my dinning room chairs where I schooled you yesturday and the rugs on my floor, amd the plastics in my blinds on the finish on my hardwood or finish on my tile mantel or my coffee table and my book shelf and the hoody I am wearing and my plastic coffee machine and tin can my coffe came from the glass cleaner I use and whatever this phone is admitting and the wifi that found you. Who is responsible for adding all the "acceptable limits" of all these products put together and deciding that I am still safe?

a reply to: deadlyhope

I think there is a real lack of economic education and even history these days. There are no records of actual successful socialist regimes. They all create lack and misery. By contrast the most hyper-capitalistic regimes have most of the middle class retiring as millionaires and virtually no poor, at least among those willing to actually work. Moreover it is in the government heavy regimes that you see the largest discrepancy between the rich and poor.

We have a huge rich-poor gap during Obama's regime, which included the largest tax increases in US history, crushing small businesses and a much smaller one during the Reagan or even during the democrat in republican clothing, Bush regime.

Hyper capitalist regimes you can examine include Switzerland, Hong Kong and Singapore. Most of what you think is capitalism is actually a form of socialism now called crony capitalism, but is akin to corporate fascism. Again it is where state power controls the entire economy. In the case of the west, real state power should be equated with the elite financial industry that controls the corporate boards of the worlds largest corporations as well as decides who gets "elected".

By the way Switzerland considered a minimum wage law, but it was soundly rejected by it's own populace who obviously understand the virtues of free markets. The going rate for unskilled labor at that time was $26 an hour LOL. Lets see if a socialist can tax his way into so much prosperity that unskilled labor commands a starting salary of $26 an hour. The reason for the failure of socialism is so abundantly clear.

The American colonies started with a socialist system, but rejected it after it resulted in 50% of the population starving. The mistake gets repeated in places like Venezuela, Argentina and so forth, with similar disastrous results.

www.forbes.com...

a reply to: luthier

You rock, dude.

Just saying......without following up on all of the content of this OP now. The mere fact you still argue your point gets my utter most respect.

You just rock, men. Although we don't agree on all points,I guess. And we don't have to.

originally posted by: Willingly
a reply to: luthier

You rock, dude.

Just saying......without following up on all of the content of this OP now. The mere fact you still argue your point gets my utter most respect.

You just rock, men. Although we don't agree on all points,I guess. And we don't have to.

Well thanks man.

I guess I am just a stubborn sob.

Really though it's bizarre to me people can't see the difference between theory and reality.

Lots of free market ideas sound great. Many of the Austrian school style people though completely ignore Money Power.

It's down right absurd.

I don't really have steadfast beliefs as far as economics. I think it requires some system introspection and studying how theory and human nature effect the reality of the situation.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: rockintitz

A free market IS carte Blanche!

Surely you recognise that!

Not even free market. It was Free Market left uncheck and taken over by the rich. Capitalism doesn't work as a whole when it comes to money. Before money it used to be Gold and we all know who was greedy and all. But, land grabbing is when the serious shisss starts happening. Forget free market. Look at Real Estate now and expansion of corporations.

originally posted by: deadlyhope
It seems capitalists see no problems with a huge amount of wealth in the hands of few people.

Nope.

The Koch brothers fund wars in the middle east.
The Koch brothers are not the only people that profit off wars
Walmart workers collect food stamps and other government benefits.
They need better unions
Big pharma and big agriculture literally dictate what you will put into your body unless you grow your own food, herbs, etc... , not caring about the harmful side effects, or caring about what's actually effective or healthy.
we need less government. I agree.
We've lost a huge amount of manufacturing jobs over seas, profit margins weren't good enough when someone wants to be able to feed their family off the wages.
because of 39% corporate taxes and extensive regulations.
The fast food industry is no longer a part time after school job for most - these are now jobs people are having to work while supporting their family, yet they are continuously degraded for being in that job..
Their work is not that valuable.
Less degrees are being applied towards their fields, so college doesn't even give the promise of careers like it used to.. While we're on the topic, isn't it crazy how much tuition is, and how bad student debt it?
Both because of government not capitalism
You can blame specific people, companies, or the government but what it comes down to is this is the type of thing that happens in a money-centric nation (capitalistic) - it's inevitable that with huge amounts of money, there is a huge amount of corruption.
corruption can happen with any form of economy.
But keep on keeping on capitalists, those trillionaires need you to defend them, their wars, slave trades, etc. Good job!

Yeah I like my fast food,movies,video games,smartphones, high definition TV and broadband internet. Capitalism sucks

Just curious. To those in support of a 'completely unregulated market':

You go in Walmart. You buy a shirt or pants from a company based in the US. Yet made by Bangladeshis, for cents on the dollar, under conditions that many consider to be slave labor. American jobs are lost from this outsourcing. Mom and pop stores virtually nonexistent now as a result of this economic 'freedom'.

How is this good? Most' free market' are anti-globalization and things like this are a huge step in that direction. I'm all for auditing the FED and de-privatizing our central bank(so ironic that it's libertarians that want this most), but are you really saying that no lines should be drawn, ever? I think outsourcing should be illegal or only allowed if ethical.

originally posted by: Dfairlite

Lol you completely ignore the fact that those fine politicians accepted a payoff. There are two parties to this transaction of corruption,

Who are the 2 parties involved?
I'll tell you who it usually involves.

It does not involve Joe the Plumber that owns his business, or Matt the Local Bank Manager or Jill the accountant at local car dealership that could do a better job than the con jobs running the game now.

Actually, Monkeys could do a better job running the government because they would not intentionally create so many economic policies detrimental the majority of Americans but beneficial to their Corporate Benefactors.

It involves Major Corporate and Banking revolving door insiders scratching each others backs.

There is not one difference between a politician and a corporate leader.

Look at Ted Cruz and his wife as an example of the problem.
His wife worked for Goldman Sachs and was on the board of the CFR

Where does the politician end and the corporation begin.
There are no public politicians in existence serving the good of this country but only puppets serving their lobbyist masters.

a reply to: deadlyhope

Switzerland has high national long term umemploymemt. (Something like over fifty percent if you are female with no secondary education?)

www.tradingeconomics.com...

www.tradingeconomics.com...

So, is there a "ruling class" in Switzerland?
They are providing for their standard of living by barrowing from the future. How is that different than the USA? I guess socialism does only work until you run out of other people's money.

Hilary, the best years of political service provides.