Capitalists - you really don't see a problem?

originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: luthier

"separation of corporation and state"

Should definitely be an amendment.

No corporate money in politics.
No corporate lobbyists.

I can definitely agree with that idea.

a reply to: deadlyhope

For sure. What would the objection be? Pretty obviously self serving.


Locke and Roseau had great ideas and the forefathers did there best to make them a reality. We just got very lost along the way and stopped making changes to combat problems. Instead preferring the old and battle tested divide and conquer.

a reply to: Bluntone22

It's funny how they divided us so deeply the left and right can't even agree how bad we are being bent over.

Pretty sure even free market capitalists see a problem with Lobby power. This extends to liberal unions.

Personally I know it's dangerous but the market also needs very simple basic regulations to prevent massive workforce elimination. Probably just in the form of using tariffs to Ballance the outsourcing. I think it's a good idea to have a totally free market but the human greed factor is too high to leave on its own.

We're all both nature and nurture. A person's nurture can only stretch a person's nature so far before they go insane and completely lose it. There are people built from many different clays.

The problem is, those that don't crave money and power don't seek it, therefore they rarely have it. A lot of people just want to live a simple life with friends, family, pets, and loved ones. They neither crave nor seek fame, they aren't incredibly ambitious, life for them is about living. Often they're called lazy, or many other horrible things, because that same lack of ambition and desire for simply living makes many such types break under the yoke of the 48+ hour work week because it saps them of the one thing that for them makes life worth living, time with friends and family, time to explore the wonders of the world and live. If you give them a bunch of money, they'll spend it helping friends, family and others, save just enough to never work again, and live simply. They won't off-shore it, they won't ruin anyone else with it, they might do some crazy stuff with it cause why the hell not. They might see the world, travel, many will go to college, not for degrees, but to take classes they WANT not need to take, to learn things that interest them. They might even contribute to research and advancement as they pursue intellectual interests with no need to grind for money.

But what they won't do is, go start some company, they won't become some ruthless CEO, they'll just be the same person they were before with a lot of money, possibly finally able to contribute to society in ways they could never do while working a 9 to 5+ everyday.

a reply to: rockintitz

Absolute dross.

With respect, the issues began with the creation of the federal reserve, and have not been aided by events like Reagans deregulation.

Putting some blocks in place to ensure that large institutions and companies are held responsible when they crash the market, forced to pay proper wages to all their staff at every level, and obligated not to take their business out of the country for financial reasons, that their owners are forced to put up with slower growth, in order that the market is not afflicted with boom and bust, IS sensible, and what you have at the moment is NOT sensible.

This is not a debate point, it is a statement of fact. It was government meddling in the thirties right up to the eighties, and continuing now, which lead to this crap storm.

a reply to: Puppylove

The problem is protection from psychopathy. Unfortunately we are encouraging it these days.

There needs to always be a place for the "clock puncher" as well as the ambitious dreamer.

The laws come into play when the psychopaths try to garner to much control over the lives of the average person to continue their plots and schemes.

a reply to: TrueBrit

True. But also it was the merger of corporations and government. The trust busting was not nearly enough.

a reply to: luthier

That is the problem, an old quote not sure who from but,

"Those who seek power don't deserve it, and those who do, don't seek it."

That's the real problem we need to deal with.

a reply to: Puppylove

Yep. Our government was a step but we think of it as an end.

a reply to: deadlyhope

Capitalism provides opportunity, if you waste that opportunity that's your fault. I work for what I have, nobody deserves the slightest bit of what I work for. IF I decide to share it that's up to me. Socialism and Communism are just fancy ways to justify stealing other peoples hard work to pay for those who didn't.

You want a better job??? Get a degree in agriculture or electrical engineering or architecture, or well anything useful. If you got your degree in liberal arts or something else equally useless in the real world, well sucks you be you. Enjoy that McJob.

a reply to: TrueBrit

 It was government meddling in the thirties right up to the eighties, and continuing now, which lead to this crap storm.

Wasn't that my point? I didn't suggest corporations should have carte Blanche. I do, and will, suggest that the market be left alone, though.

I agree the system we have in place is not sensible.

I guess I'm failing to see how your statement is at such odds with mine.

a reply to: sycomix

The simple and basic fact of capitalism is it will consolidate wealth to the point of fractional margins.

The other problem is job efficiency. Robotics and automation will make the market too small to sustain a society. The problems that will occur if market planning isnt considered will effect everyone. Including the wealthy.

Your approach is short sighted IMO.

You can't have over 50 percent of the public not working to save an idealistic model.

The solution is not socialism. It's an evolution of out current understanding of social, market, and political short comings.

a reply to: sycomix

Such a dystopian future your way brings, nothing but worker drones toiling away non stop crawling all over each other to just get a little bit ahead. Screw the arts, and innovations of the mind, fools those who seek to expand humanity into new realms of experience and understanding. Do what will get you ahead, it's dog eat dog, that's what life is about. Mine, mine mine, screw advancing the species, advance yourself, step over everyone else. Compete, conquer, destroy, can't keep up? Crawl into a ditch and die. Want to advance the species? Want to explore natural sciences? Explore new horizons? You best make sure someone will profit from it financially or it's worthless, no matter how much it advances our knowledge and understanding.

Actually this is a problem with capitalism, for all the advancement it promotes there are others it shuts down, as everything is about profit, and many advancements of knowledge cost money, they don't inherently produce it, and in a profit based society these things become something that can only be explored as a hobby, which because of the toil of a profit based society is often difficult to do, and as such advancements happen very slowly despite their worth to humanity as a whole.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: sycomix

Robotics and automation will make the market too small to sustain a society.

There some jobs that you simply can't automate. The engineer repairs the machines for example. Adapt to the job market. If you do not apply yourself in school well that's is your fault. The answer is simple, learn a skill or trade of long lasting value. Automotive Techs will never not be needed. IT will never not be needed, plumbing and electricians will never not be needed. Just a few examples.

a reply to: Puppylove

Not to mention the destruction of the human race because space exploration and planetary colinazations main goal isn't profit.

Funny you mention the arts. Economists are predicting the future market will be largely creative since automation will have less of an effect in it.

a reply to: sycomix

Thats simply a lack of understanding of robotics. It's more than likely robots can repair themselves and each other through AI advancement.

Also your theory is only self serving. It will do you no good when you are robbed by the majority of people who have no jobs.

Not to mention the collapse of the market from a lack of consumers.

a reply to: sycomix

God forbid you ever fall on hard times and begin to struggle. College degrees are basically papers with debt attached to them and even if you do get a decent job from a degree you'll be paying your debt off for the rest of your life.

You make it sound so simple yet it's anything but as simple as that.

The only way to fix the problems associated in the opening post are:

1. unlimited access to energy

2. replicator technology from Star Trek that can materialize anything you want instantly for free

3. unlimited access to the above for every human being at all times

It would pretty much put an end to human greed, which really is the problem with human society.

Until the day we overcome greed for the good of the species, we won't really get very far.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
It also goes against what many economists and scientists are predicting.

What your basic capitalist dies not get is machines will be able to think on their own. They will be able to design on their own. They will be able to trouble shoot on their own. IT, plumbers, automechanics will and can all be done by machines eventually. The problem is people think this current field of artifacts will be the same in the future.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I have 3 degrees, all of them paid for, never took a loan, I had this magic thing called a job and paid my own way. Ohh and yes, hard times have been had, made some mistakes after school the second time and spent 2 years homeless, but did I deserve free stuff??? The answer is NO, I got what I deserved, I paid for my mistakes.