Capitalists - you really don't see a problem?

a reply to: luthier

You can not simply leave human beings to their own devices and not expect some disasters.

Nope. Not if you don't let 'em all partake and share the fruits of all combined efforts equally. But people are very cooperative if you do so, maybe that's why some genius invented 'free' markets.

I'd rather believe in the glory of invention. Capitalism is sheer real-life irony nowadays: we hope profits equal quality and that our representatives are immune to the influence of capital, in order to represent our perceptions of the common good. It's a great bummer, actually. Light it up with some Panama Papers!

Wow! What a thread! Twenty seven pages of utter contemptuous bull#! Your mindsets are incredible. Take a look at the world. Capitalism is a parasitic ideology feeding on your minds and bending them to capitalism's will. You've got financiers around the world running nations (they used to be called countries), dictating policies and judiciary, and by that association, your lives. Capitalism has set everyone on a treadmill, and even knowing its destructive and harmful effects, you are too damn scared to either step off the treadmill, or stop capitalism in its tracks, which you can do simply by not buying the products. It's that simple. Your main problem is a fear of going without what you perceive others having and you thinking you should have as well.

We began slowly, but have since accelerated the process, we are destroying our environment's capacity to support us. It's a fact. We know this, because we see the rate of extinction of animal species has equally accelerated, and is proportionate to our level of consumerism, driven by capitalist ideology. However, it's not just animal species is it? Right now, America is using its vast military powerhouse to steal the resources of other peoples in other lands for its own use. Other Western nations are doing the same thing in collusion with America, and that is capitalism taken to the most insane 'nth' degree.

Capitalism is killing us, and incredibly we are feeding it, some of you openly applaud and support it. All I can say to that is you know not what you do. The human population is too large, the planet doesn't have the capacity to provide the same level of modern technological lifestyle for everyone. It cannot, nor can we, feed over six and a half billion people without end, and with the population continuing to enlarge. There are too many variables that stop us from doing so.

In the end, capitalism is nothing more than a social idea that imbalances society. It manifests selfishness, insularism, and indifference, and ultimately leads to societal fracture and collapse, which as you know, is well underway. Capitalism will not accept regulation (it always looks and finds ways around it, the elite always ensure it can do so), and nor can it switch off its rapacious greed, because it can only survive and maintain itself by greed and enlarging itself...it has no perspective for anything other than itself. No. Capitalism has to be purposefully and forcibly switched off by a populace it has taken to its exhausted end.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: luthier

You can not simply leave human beings to their own devices and not expect some disasters.

Nope. Not if you don't let 'em all partake and share the fruits of all combined efforts equally. But people are very cooperative if you do so, maybe that's why some genius invented 'free' markets.

I'd rather believe in the glory of invention. Capitalism is sheer real-life irony nowadays: we hope profits equal quality and that our representatives are immune to the influence of capital, in order to represent our perceptions of the common good. It's a great bummer, actually. Light it up with some Panama Papers!

I used to believe in the good of people until I had a real life (clinically proven) psychopath reek havoc on my life. Then I realized how much a coercive person can do who plans and has intelligence.

The free market principles Adam Smith wrote about were part of some very enlightened thinkers. PUN intended. They understood the reason though to regulate or watch human behaviour. One bad apple can do real damage . groups of them can alter history.

a reply to: luthier

Agreed. But it's your choice to give one psychopath the power to influence your general experience with mankind. Most people are no born sociopaths either, but this system called capitalism tends to reward them. One of them ruined my life the other day as well, so what? I can take it and move on, buck 'em. Let karma demand the tribute for that, I've got other things on my clock.

Great pun though! His invisible hand moves money offshore and preserves it's own interests while you're about to write glorious textblocks regarding the tripple-down effect. Looks a tad like religion to me.

a reply to: deadlyhope

Who benefited more from MS windows, Society as a whole or bill gates? Obviously society as a whole.
Who benefited more from walmart, The waltons or society as a whole? Obviously society as a whole.
Who benefitted more from oracle, Larry Ellison or society as a whole? Obviously society as a whole.

originally posted by: elysiumfire
Wow! What a thread! Twenty seven pages of utter contemptuous bull#! Your mindsets are incredible. Take a look at the world. Capitalism is a parasitic ideology feeding on your minds and bending them to capitalism's will. You've got financiers around the world running nations (they used to be called countries), dictating policies and judiciary, and by that association, your lives. Capitalism has set everyone on a treadmill, and even knowing its destructive and harmful effects, you are too damn scared to either step off the treadmill, or stop capitalism in its tracks, which you can do simply by not buying the products. It's that simple. Your main problem is a fear of going without what you perceive others having and you thinking you should have as well.

We began slowly, but have since accelerated the process, we are destroying our environment's capacity to support us. It's a fact. We know this, because we see the rate of extinction of animal species has equally accelerated, and is proportionate to our level of consumerism, driven by capitalist ideology. However, it's not just animal species is it? Right now, America is using its vast military powerhouse to steal the resources of other peoples in other lands for its own use. Other Western nations are doing the same thing in collusion with America, and that is capitalism taken to the most insane 'nth' degree.

Capitalism is killing us, and incredibly we are feeding it, some of you openly applaud and support it. All I can say to that is you know not what you do. The human population is too large, the planet doesn't have the capacity to provide the same level of modern technological lifestyle for everyone. It cannot, nor can we, feed over six and a half billion people without end, and with the population continuing to enlarge. There are too many variables that stop us from doing so.

In the end, capitalism is nothing more than a social idea that imbalances society. It manifests selfishness, insularism, and indifference, and ultimately leads to societal fracture and collapse, which as you know, is well underway. Capitalism will not accept regulation (it always looks and finds ways around it, the elite always ensure it can do so), and nor can it switch off its rapacious greed, because it can only survive and maintain itself by greed and enlarging itself...it has no perspective for anything other than itself. No. Capitalism has to be purposefully and forcibly switched off by a populace it has taken to its exhausted end.

Wow, what an uninformed post. You have a fundamental problem understanding what capitalism is. Capitalism is pure freedom to buy and sell whatever you want to whomever wants to buy or sell it. I'm not going to try to help you understand capitalism, you're too far gone. If you truly want to understand it you need to take some econ courses. The problems you bring up are only problems that seem impossible to solve if you look at it from a central planning standpoint, which is a false starting point. Look up some milton friedman, some maynard keynes, and some adam smith.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: luthier

Agreed. But it's your choice to give one psychopath the power to influence your general experience with mankind. Most people are no born sociopaths either, but this system called capitalism tends to reward them. One of them ruined my life the other day as well, so what? I can take it and move on, buck 'em. Let karma demand the tribute for that, I've got other things on my clock.

Great pun though! His invisible hand moves money offshore and preserves it's own interests while you're about to write glorious textblocks regarding the tripple-down effect. Looks a tad like religion to me.

Eh don't get me wrong it doesnt ruin my appreciation for humanity. There are plenty of regular old dumb arses for that

Psychopaths are born that way but sure sociopaths are not. The choice is not clear however. When someone plots and schemes to backhandidly gain some kind of advantage it isn't exactly a choice.

Same with the gov.

The reason capitalism is a decent system is because it allows merchants to innovate and produce. There are serious problems as well.

However allowing socialism only grants more power to psychopaths to decide what people can do and what is acceptable. I would love to think we could do it without needing protection from large groups of psychopaths some of which can operate under socialist, fascist , capitalist or any other state.

It's an ebb and flow. Our forefathers fathwr s thought revolutions were necessary from time to time to reset the whole model and start over.

originally posted by: Dfairlite

originally posted by: elysiumfire
Wow! What a thread! Twenty seven pages of utter contemptuous bull#! Your mindsets are incredible. Take a look at the world. Capitalism is a parasitic ideology feeding on your minds and bending them to capitalism's will. You've got financiers around the world running nations (they used to be called countries), dictating policies and judiciary, and by that association, your lives. Capitalism has set everyone on a treadmill, and even knowing its destructive and harmful effects, you are too damn scared to either step off the treadmill, or stop capitalism in its tracks, which you can do simply by not buying the products. It's that simple. Your main problem is a fear of going without what you perceive others having and you thinking you should have as well.

We began slowly, but have since accelerated the process, we are destroying our environment's capacity to support us. It's a fact. We know this, because we see the rate of extinction of animal species has equally accelerated, and is proportionate to our level of consumerism, driven by capitalist ideology. However, it's not just animal species is it? Right now, America is using its vast military powerhouse to steal the resources of other peoples in other lands for its own use. Other Western nations are doing the same thing in collusion with America, and that is capitalism taken to the most insane 'nth' degree.

Capitalism is killing us, and incredibly we are feeding it, some of you openly applaud and support it. All I can say to that is you know not what you do. The human population is too large, the planet doesn't have the capacity to provide the same level of modern technological lifestyle for everyone. It cannot, nor can we, feed over six and a half billion people without end, and with the population continuing to enlarge. There are too many variables that stop us from doing so.

In the end, capitalism is nothing more than a social idea that imbalances society. It manifests selfishness, insularism, and indifference, and ultimately leads to societal fracture and collapse, which as you know, is well underway. Capitalism will not accept regulation (it always looks and finds ways around it, the elite always ensure it can do so), and nor can it switch off its rapacious greed, because it can only survive and maintain itself by greed and enlarging itself...it has no perspective for anything other than itself. No. Capitalism has to be purposefully and forcibly switched off by a populace it has taken to its exhausted end.

Wow, what an uninformed post. You have a fundamental problem understanding what capitalism is. Capitalism is pure freedom to buy and sell whatever you want to whomever wants to buy or sell it. I'm not going to try to help you understand capitalism, you're too far gone. If you truly want to understand it you need to take some econ courses. The problems you bring up are only problems that seem impossible to solve if you look at it from a central planning standpoint, which is a false starting point. Look up some milton friedman, some maynard keynes, and some adam smith.

Man glad to see some sensible econ. I have had to argue against the danger of the Austrian school alone. Your going to get blasted for bringing up Keynes. I don't always like his ideas but I respect him as a genius and thinker.

I have a serious problem with capitalists who can't understand sometimes mankind will corrupt the system and it needs to be addressed.

The other issue I have is that must mean socialism is the only answer to solve problems.

Basically both poles hate me for saying its complicated and theory needs to be tested against reality.

a reply to: luthier

The reason capitalism is a decent system is because it allows merchants to innovate and produce. There are serious problems as well.

Yeah, until the upright tradesman died and the pure financial markets -aka serious problems- took over. Things change, capitalism doesn't improve with a second Adam Smith rerun and his conceptions of benevolent egoism. History proved him wrong, at least if the other 90% still count.
Most people I know chose to be one of the few profiteers and I don't blaim them, at least most of the time. Let's evolve from the dirt of sheer consumerism, will we? Who needs _ism's then?

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: luthier

The reason capitalism is a decent system is because it allows merchants to innovate and produce. There are serious problems as well.

Yeah, until the upright tradesman died and the pure financial markets -aka serious problems- took over. Things change, capitalism doesn't improve with a second Adam Smith rerun and his conceptions of benevolent egoism. History proved him wrong, at least if the other 90% still count.
Most people I know chose to be one of the few profiteers and I don't blaim them, at least most of the time. Let's evolve from the dirt of sheer consumerism, will we? Who needs _ism's then?

I make guitars so it isn't dead.


Evolution is fine. If you have ideas worth reading on a larger philosophical scale that is beyound a forum I am willing to consider them.

Love me some Bucky fuller and Elon Musk. I am not a religious capitalist. I do think it's better than socialism in terms of controlling a future dictator.

What you are talking about would require the entire world to evolve philosophically. That is s long way off.

a reply to: luthier

Yep, interesting times! Well, let's make some guitars and paint some paintings until we're finally there.

And with regards to philosophical questions take open source projects for starters:

The man who trained more than 66 countries in open source methods calls for re-invention of intelligence to re-engineer Earth

The open source revolution is coming and it will conquer the 1% - ex CIA spy

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: luthier

Yep, interesting times! Well, let's make some guitars and paint some paintings until we're finally there.

And with regards to philosophical questions take open source projects for starters:

The man who trained more than 66 countries in open source methods calls for re-invention of intelligence to re-engineer Earth

The open source revolution is coming and it will conquer the 1% - ex CIA spy

Have you watched slingshot? Dean Kaman. Musk has opened sourced a lot of technology. I love he sued over contract monopolies as well.

a reply to: luthier

I really enjoy people catching my drift!

The SlingShot machine is capable of producing roughly 1000 liters (250 gallons) of pure, distilled water every day, using only the power of a hairdryer. It is the size of a small college dorm refrigerator. Once installed in a remote village, it can supply the daily water needs for up to 100 people, providing drinking, washing and cooking water. With this clean water supply, general health conditions will improve instantaneously. Kamen has been struggling for well over fifteen years to get his SlingShot machines mass-produced and distributed around the world. He has gone to many organizations for help: the World Bank, the UN, the World Health Organization, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and many other governmental agencies, and NGO’s. But, these entities are not set up to help mass manufacture the SlingShot technology or distribute Kamen’s machine to the poorest corners of the world.

www.slingshotdoc.com...

Muaha, trickle the eff down down down...

Well, this is merely an extension of Reagan style laissez faire economics, with a healthy dose of social Darwinism and ultra-competitive propaganda... Repealing Glass-Steagle didn't help. And Too Big To Fail = Too Big To Exist. We need another "trust buster" like TR...a reply to: deadlyhope

a reply to: deadlyhope

This is not about Capitalism, it's about corruption. People who believe in Socialism think the government will take care of them. I mean please do we really think if we just keep putting everything in government somehow things will get better? That is so naïve.
What we have now in the US is actually a mixed economy, that is we have elements of socialism and capitalism....and Keynesian mechanism. We have a fiat currency and unrealistic spending by an out of control Congress, we have also what is called public/private partnerships and non-governmental organizations and tons of groups lobbying Congress. We have Bill Gates buying the Governor's Association so he can make a hefty profit while supporting more government control.
I could say more but I sound like a broken record

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: jacobe001

It's definitely in need of serious changes.

Which is why I can critique capitalism. It requires perfect situations of robots without greed to not have regulations. Even just basic ones to deal with corruption.

The free market capitalists completely disregard human nature. I wish we could have a free market. I wish a lot of things though.

Regulations only do so much. We are already tied up in regulations and has it made things really better, especially when government organizations designed to enforce them fail and make things worse? When did regulations keep horsemeat out of the market? And now lately rat meat going for chicken wings. And that comes out of China....you know those foreign container... and how about that EPA mess in the river ..

These forms of competition seems they would serve to expand our human experience.

a reply to: deadlyhope

Competition is the root word here. There are different types of Capitalist mechanism...Competitive, monopolistic, oligarchic
Don't get confused when you read all about state-capitalism and so on... this type of capitalism is not based on free enterprise and are pushed by people who want and expect government intervention.
People also get confused when they believe that government can and will fix problems of society. Our Founding Fathers believed in and built our Constitution on minimal government, not the excessive, overbloated, over powerful, abusive monster we have today.
Thanks to John Dewey, our educational system teaches children to become robotic cogs in the Totalitarian wheel. He believed, as all Totalitarians do, that we exist for the State and the State is all powerful. What a shame and a sham. The more government the less freedom and liberty.
You want to be controlled by the State? Not me. You believe the State will keep others from controlling you? Think again. It's a lie

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: jacobe001

It's definitely in need of serious changes.

Which is why I can critique capitalism. It requires perfect situations of robots without greed to not have regulations. Even just basic ones to deal with corruption.

The free market capitalists completely disregard human nature. I wish we could have a free market. I wish a lot of things though.

Regulations only do so much. We are already tied up in regulations and has it made things really better, especially when government organizations designed to enforce them fail and make things worse? When did regulations keep horsemeat out of the market? And now lately rat meat going for chicken wings. And that comes out of China....you know those foreign container... and how about that EPA mess in the river ..

I don't (partly) disagree.

I find fault with saying the failure to solve the problem means there is no solution or worse there is no problem.

If I have a leak in my roof and I put a tarp on it and it eventually blows off that doesn't mean I don't have a hole in my roof. It means the solution was not permanent and it didn't work long-term.

I completely understand regulation means a possible exploitation.

The problem is corruption will happen in the free market and it won't be fixed by the market alone. People won't just play by the rules on their own. Because of the enormous odds involved the chances of powerful psychopathic behaviour is enivetable. Which is why socialism is even scarier.

The problem I have like I keep saying is it is not just its either a free unregulated system of its socialism. The reality is it needs to evolve when problems arise and solutions fail.

That is very complicated. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't adress and consider the issues.

a reply to: luthier

Well, I've explained now already that we in the US have a mixed economy. How would you really know what is working when all these different mechanisms are at play at once? People keep saying that socialism would make things better, but we already have a bunch of socialist programs since FDR and the New Deal. I am saying government isn't the end all be all solution many keep going for, not that there's no solution.
Marxists have been trying to end Capitalism since the 1800's. Did it work yet? The Soviet Union failed because government centralized control does not work. Why are people today believing that it will work better in the US?
Limited government is so much better than centralized planning. Everything is way out of control and won't get better till we stop with the whole UN stuff. The UN is a mechanism for World Communism/Totalitarianism.

The problem is corruption will happen in the free market and it won't be fixed by the market alone. People won't just play by the rules on their own.

And they will play by the rules more if we just have government running everything? Please do not buy into this. It is the lie of the serpent. We need true morality not secular humanism. In fact secular humanism has destroyed the educational system and all morality is designed by the State and not by absolute values.

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
a reply to: luthier

Well, I've explained now already that we in the US have a mixed economy. How would you really know what is working when all these different mechanisms are at play at once? People keep saying that socialism would make things better, but we already have a bunch of socialist programs since FDR and the New Deal. I am saying government isn't the end all be all solution many keep going for, not that there's no solution.
Marxists have been trying to end Capitalism since the 1800's. Did it work yet? The Soviet Union failed because government centralized control does not work. Why are people today believing that it will work better in the US?
Limited government is so much better than centralized planning. Everything is way out of control and won't get better till we stop with the whole UN stuff. The UN is a mechanism for World Communism/Totalitarianism.

The problem is corruption will happen in the free market and it won't be fixed by the market alone. People won't just play by the rules on their own.

And they will play by the rules more if we just have government running everything? Please do not buy into this. It is the lie of the serpent. We need true morality not secular humanism.

I am not buying into anything. I don't think more government regulations are the answer. I think the the market needs to be regulated.

At the most free market stages in American history prior to the fed there were very serious problems still. Like Saudia Arabian inhumane issues. So there are definitely purpose to democracy and regulations.

The solution is to both make the market more free butbto also have smarter basic regulations.

I assume you have read Locke, Smith, Hume, Roseau, and of coarse our founders. They were not saying no laws, no regulations, no Government. They were using pretty amazingly enlightened thinking to make a system of checks and balances that maximize liberty while still understanding the dangers of reality. I think we need to trim down for sure and it's not more government by any means I am am suggesting. It is a re affirment of the enlightenment values with an understanding of what went wrong.

You can see my arguements against socialism over the 20 something pages as well.

The problem is your trying to put me in a box. I am not religious about any one particular philosophy. I adhere to the need to evolve and learn from mistakes.