Capitalists - you really don't see a problem?

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Your argument is "because they said so".

And their argument is "because we said so"

My argument is consistent with human nature.

Your argument believes in saints in gov.

Seems like you can't see who is saying what. Phone?

Humans always end up forming hierarchies so no, your argument is not consistant with human nature.

Humans are rational first, not hierarchical first.

When humans see no benefit in hierarchies they will not form them. All hierarchies then will be corporations that genuinely serve their members.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Humans are rational first, not hierarchical first.

Because you say so?

Even tribes had chiefs. Heck even die hard american freedom lovers are looking to Trump for real leadership.

When humans see no benefit in hierarchies they will not form them. All hierarchies then will be corporations that genuinely serve their members.

When they are formed by force there is no choice. And the golden rule comes into play there.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: Semicollegiate

So what is the best tactic to fight ?

Part 2

After the new economy starts, life will be a lot like now except no taxes.

In the mean time the pioneer/shopkeeper looks like the only way to get away from the gov.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Humans are rational first, not hierarchical first.

Because you say so?

Even tribes had chiefs. Heck even die hard american freedom lovers are looking to Trump for real leadership.

When humans see no benefit in hierarchies they will not form them. All hierarchies then will be corporations that genuinely serve their members.

When they are formed by force there is no choice. And the golden rule comes into play there.

Learning affects rationality. Rational means people choose what they think is best, not what might actually be the best.

If people were irrational there would be no law.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
If people were irrational there would be no law.

I never said that they were not rational.

I did say that hierarchies are always formed because, for whatever reason, they are.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
If people were irrational there would be no law.

I never said that they were not rational.

I did say that hierarchies are always formed because, for whatever reason, they are.

There was always slavery and God before too.

Human is reason.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
There was always slavery and God before too.

Both of those things still exist.

Human is reason.

See above.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
There was always slavery and God before too.

Both of those things still exist.

Human is reason.

See above.

Not as chattel slavery, (the obviously intended meaning) or the Divine Right of Kings.

Hierarchies exist when humans see them as the best option.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Not as chattel slavery, (the obviously intended meaning) or the Divine Right of Kings.

Actually they do. Maybe not in the US but, in less controlled places they do, which actually works against your argument.

a reply to: Semicollegiate

How many things can you ignore about human nature.

Human beings are NOT rational first.

They are products of their enviornment first. See platos "the cave" for more.

Rational thinking comes from evolutionary idea padagodgy.

If you are born into a reinforced tribe you will act like a member of a rainforest tribe. (Who by the way are the only example of a lack of government and hold no property or industry)

Culture makes humans first. God was an inquiry into Cosmology even if the hypothesis was flawed.

Hierarchy comes when someone hordes resources most effectively when a group can conspire to horde and create a hierarchical system.

A free market will not correct human nature. It can not. The force of human nature is stronger than the force of the market.

If a person hordes resources and builds an army the market will not stop this.

No matter how many unicorns you ride in on.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Not as chattel slavery, (the obviously intended meaning) or the Divine Right of Kings.

Actually they do. Maybe not in the US but, in less controlled places they do, which actually works against your argument.

No.

If slavery were still allowed they could take them anywhere in the world and let it be known they were slaves with no effect at all.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Semicollegiate

How many things can you ignore about human nature.

Human beings are NOT rational first.

The existence of the law says otherwise.

No matter how many unicorns you ride in on.

Group thinker.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Semicollegiate

How many things can you ignore about human nature.

Human beings are NOT rational first.

The existence of the law says otherwise.

No matter how many unicorns you ride in on.

Group thinker.

Neither of those comments make any rational sense.

Which disproves your point again.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
If slavery were still allowed they could take them anywhere in the world and let it be known they were slaves with no effect at all.

I didn't say it was "allowed" I said it existed. Of course in your AC world it would not be prohibited so it would probably be more commonplace.

What was your argument again?

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
If slavery were still allowed they could take them anywhere in the world and let it be known they were slaves with no effect at all.

I didn't say it was "allowed" I said it existed. Of course in your AC world it would not be prohibited so it would probably be more commonplace.

What was your argument again?

von Mises 12:1

"Though shall site the failure of a solution to mean the absence of a problem"

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
If slavery were still allowed they could take them anywhere in the world and let it be known they were slaves with no effect at all.

I didn't say it was "allowed" I said it existed. Of course in your AC world it would not be prohibited so it would probably be more commonplace.

What was your argument again?

I win because you never address the real issue.

Never.

a reply to: CranialSponge

So how the hell do we shove pandora back into the box ?!

We need a few things to pull that off:

- educate everyone on this planet with open souce for everything
- install a direct democracy, with free and highly encrypted internet-access for all of us, to take part in elections regarding specific topics whilst education ourselves with open source data to do so knowingly.

There you have it, quite the road to utopia but kinda hard to achieve for various reasons. There's still hope, Utrecht just started this project of 'Giving Cities'. Seeing them finally implement the unconditional basic income tells me two things:
the time is now and they're pretty desperate to save as much as possible, which could enable change on a broad scale. We're talking about a 'New Deal' with regards to values and human paradigms, it already started.

Just. Don't. Give. Up!

originally posted by: deadlyhope
It seems capitalists see no problems with a huge amount of wealth in the hands of few people.
Why should we?
The Koch brothers fund wars in the middle east.
Proof?
Walmart workers collect food stamps and other government benefits.
Cheap expendable labor is less valuable. They need a union to pressure them for better wages.Government is not needed.
Big pharma and big agriculture literally dictate what you will put into your body unless you grow your own food, herbs, etc... , not caring about the harmful side effects, or caring about what's actually effective or healthy.
wouldn't be a problem if they didn't hijack the lawmaking with lobbyists.
We've lost a huge amount of manufacturing jobs over seas, profit margins weren't good enough when someone wants to be able to feed their family off the wages.
We need better unions,no corporate taxes,no income taxes, and A LOT less government
The fast food industry is no longer a part time after school job for most - these are now jobs people are having to work while supporting their family, yet they are continuously degraded for being in that job..
remove the corporate taxes and government regulations. The industry will come back.
Less degrees are being applied towards their fields, so college doesn't even give the promise of careers like it used to.. While we're on the topic, isn't it crazy how much tuition is, and how bad student debt it?
Yes it is high. We need competing private trade schools to bring the costs down.
You can blame specific people, companies, or the government but what it comes down to is this is the type of thing that happens in a money-centric nation (capitalistic) - it's inevitable that with huge amounts of money, there is a huge amount of corruption.
Collectivism is no better with its purges and revolutions.
But keep on keeping on capitalists, those trillionaires need you to defend them, their wars, slave trades, etc. Good job!

Nahh that's ok.

I'll take my capitalism, cheeseburgers,cheap internet,supermarkets,advanced technology available to the general public, and profitable small businesses.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
If slavery were still allowed they could take them anywhere in the world and let it be known they were slaves with no effect at all.

I didn't say it was "allowed" I said it existed. Of course in your AC world it would not be prohibited so it would probably be more commonplace.

What was your argument again?

von Mises 12:1

"Though shall site the failure of a solution to mean the absence of a problem"

The law proves man is rational.

You lose.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
I win because you never address the real issue.

Never.

The fact that everything you say is not reflected in the real world.

That is the real issue. Your not winning there.