Capitalists - you really don't see a problem?

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
I see you ignored the core idea and the relevant information.

What was that? That a few good swords were made in 6 BC or that Astor got permission from the president of the US to disregard the law and establish a monoply proves free markets?

I didn't miss it. It is proof to the contrary.

What is a free market to you?

I'm going by what you said they are and pointing out when you go against that.

Which contrary?

Pick one

a reply to: Semicollegiate

No I don't like Hobbes much. I prefer Jefferson and locke.

Because without it nobody will protect your property. Before you spout some rediculous philosophy look at reality. Egalitarian tribes had no property. They were invaded constantly.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Which contrary?

Pick one

I'll pick both.

Are those swords more and better since they were made in a free market? You did say that free markets led to more and better products. I'm willing to say that they may have been better than those of the time but not better than those made using modern techniques despite the latter being made in non-free markets. They were not more, that is for sure.

Astor got permission from Jefferson to disregard the Embargo Act of 1807, which wasn't repealed until 1809, which means that he used gov to get ahead in his sector and establish a monopoly.

Neither of these two examples prove that free markets make more and better things.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Semicollegiate

No I don't like Hobbes much. I prefer Jefferson and locke.

Because without it nobody will protect your property. Before you spout some rediculous philosophy look at reality. Egalitarian tribes had no property. They were invaded constantly.

The government doesn't protect YOUR property either. The government protects the government's property.

Freedom means risk. Acceptable risk to be sure.

The need for gov comes from the threat of other govs. IMO

Day to day life is commerce. All government functions are done by people for money. If we pay them directly we save on gov waste.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Semicollegiate

No I don't like Hobbes much. I prefer Jefferson and locke.

Because without it nobody will protect your property. Before you spout some rediculous philosophy look at reality. Egalitarian tribes had no property. They were invaded constantly.

The government doesn't protect YOUR property either. The government protects the government's property.

Freedom means risk. Acceptable risk to be sure.

The need for gov comes from the threat of other govs. IMO

Day to day life is commerce. All government functions are done by people for money. If we pay them directly we save on gov waste.

So if I come to your house and take your stuff I won't get arrested?

What time do you go to work?

a reply to: daskakik

originally posted by: daskakik
Really, you seeing lots of products coming from "frontiers or Barbarian lands"?

Neither of these two examples prove that free markets make more and better things.

They came from barbarian lands and they were rare and demanded things.


"The free market concept is free because it isolates the market from non economic variables. Like some physics examples disregard air resistance in motion equations. Early artillerists successfully used Newton's equations without including air resistance.

The real world free market would have no taxes or regulations. Any real free markets in the world would exist outside of States and empires, on frontiers or in Barbarian lands. Inside of civilization there has never been a real world free market.

The essence of every market is the free market. The reality of every market is arbitrary distortion of the price system and theft of the benefits of free trade by political power.

When there has been less distortion and theft the free market has done more. The Industrial Revolution happened at a time when, compared to today, there was a genuinely free market.

Without the FDA and gov in general, there would have been exponentially more biological advancement by way of the free market.

For example Extremely the fast growing and hardy hemp plant would be genetically engineered to make hydrocarbon chains, vitamins, amino acids or any number of hard to find biochemicals.

www.abovetopsecret.com... "

I just said that sheetrock and pickup trucks were not products of free markets because you said that free markets would have no taxes or regulations, then you said every product is a product of free markets and... what?

No contradiction. Like money is currency and money is wealth and money is a price.

a reply to: pSemicollegiate

Without the fda you would be poisoned on a daily basis. People would sell you snake oil and get you addicted to drugs. Just like prior to the fda.

The fda also sucks.

Guess what not everything fits in a nice little box.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Semicollegiate

No I don't like Hobbes much. I prefer Jefferson and locke.

Because without it nobody will protect your property. Before you spout some rediculous philosophy look at reality. Egalitarian tribes had no property. They were invaded constantly.

The government doesn't protect YOUR property either. The government protects the government's property.

Freedom means risk. Acceptable risk to be sure.

The need for gov comes from the threat of other govs. IMO

Day to day life is commerce. All government functions are done by people for money. If we pay them directly we save on gov waste.

So if I come to your house and take your stuff I won't get arrested?

What time do you go to work?

You probably wont get arrested unless you do it for a living. Gov hates competition.

Most criminals do crime repeatedly, as in, gov didn't help the first victims at all.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: pSemicollegiate

Without the fda you would be poisoned on a daily basis. People would sell you snake oil and get you addicted to drugs. Just like prior to the fda.

The fda also sucks.

Guess what not everything fits in a nice little box.

Has the FDA killed more peole than it has "saved"?

During one 10-year period, not one new cardiac drug was approved – and this from the world’s leading pharmaceutical industries.

So, the next time you hear an FDA honcho at a press conference bragging how they will be saving 35,000 lives each year with the new cardiac drug they just passed, remember the 35,000 people who died each year waiting 15 years for that FDA approval.

And it is important to realize that the FDA is not a team of crack researchers – although it does incestuously employ former drug company people – nor is it a group of actively practicing physicians. They are paper pushers.

Read more at mobile.wnd.com...

And that was just one drug.

Every successful business needs a good reputation. The internet makes even the plausibility of necessary gov verification obsolete.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Semicollegiate

No I don't like Hobbes much. I prefer Jefferson and locke.

Because without it nobody will protect your property. Before you spout some rediculous philosophy look at reality. Egalitarian tribes had no property. They were invaded constantly.

The government doesn't protect YOUR property either. The government protects the government's property.

Freedom means risk. Acceptable risk to be sure.

The need for gov comes from the threat of other govs. IMO

Day to day life is commerce. All government functions are done by people for money. If we pay them directly we save on gov waste.

So if I come to your house and take your stuff I won't get arrested?

What time do you go to work?

You probably wont get arrested unless you do it for a living. Gov hates competition.

Most criminals do crime repeatedly, as in, gov didn't help the first victims at all.

Do you have a stat for that?

Most criminals have a record.

And your being very obtuse here.

If you believe that go take a picture of you stealing your neighbors TV.

a reply to: Semicollegiate

That is not how science. Works regarding correlation and causation.

I can sell you opium all day long. Guarantee my customers won't care about anything you wrote.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
They came from barbarian lands and they were rare and demanded things.

But they don't compare to blades made under non-free markets.

No contradiction. Like money is currency and money is wealth and money is a price.

The contradiction doesn't lie in what things are called but in what type of economy they were invented. Neither was invented in a free market.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Semicollegiate

No I don't like Hobbes much. I prefer Jefferson and locke.

Because without it nobody will protect your property. Before you spout some rediculous philosophy look at reality. Egalitarian tribes had no property. They were invaded constantly.

The government doesn't protect YOUR property either. The government protects the government's property.

Freedom means risk. Acceptable risk to be sure.

The need for gov comes from the threat of other govs. IMO

Day to day life is commerce. All government functions are done by people for money. If we pay them directly we save on gov waste.

So if I come to your house and take your stuff I won't get arrested?

What time do you go to work?

You probably wont get arrested unless you do it for a living. Gov hates competition.

Most criminals do crime repeatedly, as in, gov didn't help the first victims at all.

Do you have a stat for that?

Most criminals have a record.

And your being very obtuse here.

If you believe that go take a picture of you stealing your neighbors TV.

Crimes Recorded 2010

Bigger Image
www.disastercenter.com...

Arrests Recorded 2010

Bigger Image
www.bjs.gov...

10 million violent and property crimes committed
2.1 million violent and property arrests made.

Average of five felonies per arrest.

The gov protects the gov, and whatever.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Semicollegiate

No I don't like Hobbes much. I prefer Jefferson and locke.

Because without it nobody will protect your property. Before you spout some rediculous philosophy look at reality. Egalitarian tribes had no property. They were invaded constantly.

The government doesn't protect YOUR property either. The government protects the government's property.

Freedom means risk. Acceptable risk to be sure.

The need for gov comes from the threat of other govs. IMO

Day to day life is commerce. All government functions are done by people for money. If we pay them directly we save on gov waste.

So if I come to your house and take your stuff I won't get arrested?

What time do you go to work?

You probably wont get arrested unless you do it for a living. Gov hates competition.

Most criminals do crime repeatedly, as in, gov didn't help the first victims at all.

Do you have a stat for that?

Most criminals have a record.

And your being very obtuse here.

If you believe that go take a picture of you stealing your neighbors TV.

Crimes Recorded 2010

Bigger Image
www.disastercenter.com...

Arrests Recorded 2010

Bigger Image
www.bjs.gov...

10 million violent and property crimes committed
2.1 million violent and property arrests made.

Average of five felonies per arrest.

The gov protects the gov, and whatever.

You realize you just disproved yourself right?

originally posted by: luthier
You realize you just disproved yourself right?

Does it often but doesn't seem to realize it.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: luthier
You realize you just disproved yourself right?

Does it often but doesn't seem to realize it.

We should probably have debated each other on the subject. Probably would have learned more.

It's hard for me to not argue sometimes. I have a philosophy background I don't get to use enough and then expect to find a forum for debating in a formal way. When one can't concede their own fallacy and there is no moderator it just is a circle.

It does take some training to debate and treat it like golf where you can admit your score.

Oh well it seems to be going no where.

What do you feel can be done to keep a market healthy?

Do you think it needs regulation?

What can be done to keep regulation from going overboard?

Sincerely asking just to expand my own thinking.

As I recall your "proof"s are,

we need the gov, cause the gov told us so,

the appeal to authority,

and various pejorative words and condescending tones.

Proof enough for you.

originally posted by: luthier
What do you feel can be done to keep a market healthy?

Do you think it needs regulation?

What can be done to keep regulation from going overboard?

Sincerely asking just to expand my own thinking.

Honestly, I think you need to stop thinking about it. It will go as far as it can go and then it will be snaapped back by the need of the people. That may not be when you or I want it but neither of us is going to make it happen any sooner. The AC crowd isn't going to make much differenece either.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
As I recall your "proof"s are,

we need the gov, cause the gov told us so,

the appeal to authority,

and various pejorative words and condescending tones.

Proof enough for you.

Can you quote that?

I certaintaly never stated that.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: luthier
What do you feel can be done to keep a market healthy?

Do you think it needs regulation?

What can be done to keep regulation from going overboard?

Sincerely asking just to expand my own thinking.

Honestly, I think you need to stop thinking about it. It will go as far as it can go and then it will be snaapped back by the need of the people. That may not be when you or I want it but neither of us is going to make it happen any sooner. The AC crowd isn't going to make much differenece either.

I don't know. I am a philosopher (by piece of paper) and it just is part of who I am.

But I don't think your wrong.