Capitalists - you really don't see a problem?

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Semicollegiate

Sure a good arguement.

However the number of exec orders, the wars, and new law enforcement dept is pretty close.

Yeah it was pretty bad.

The Patriot Act was ready to go before he took office. I guess they were expecting something.

a reply to: Semicollegiate

Again maybe.

Unkowable

Ww1 and 2 can not be attributed to purely us policy. Same with the depression. Which is another aspect of market complexity.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Semicollegiate

Sure a good arguement.

However the number of exec orders, the wars, and new law enforcement dept is pretty close.

Yeah it was pretty bad.

The Patriot Act was ready to go before he took office. I guess they were expecting something.

Yep. Like the gun control folks before the dead are even buried when a tragedy happens.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Semicollegiate

Again maybe.

Unkowable

Ww1 and 2 can not be attributed to purely us policy. Same with the depression. Which is another aspect of market complexity.

The Germans lost WW1 because of

1) The BEF. No BEF and the Germans would have defeated France in 1914 and then went home like they did after the Franco-Prussian War of 1870. Russian would have surrendered, no Russian Revolution. 100% British gov responsibility.

2) The AEF. The American entered the war when both sides were exhausted but only the Germans had to win. Germany was being starved by the British blockade. The 1918 German offensive had destroyed the Allied lines when the Americans arrived. Without America, Germany would have won in 1918 and went home, like they did after the Franco-Prussian War of 1870. No Versailles Treaty, no WW2, no cold war. 100% American Gov responsibility, 99% Woodrow Wilson's "He kept us out of war" responsibility.

The great depression was caused by Fed inflation in the 20's. In the name of "price stability" because increases in relative wealth from deflation can't be taxed.

a reply to: Semicollegiate

CC lowered taxes

Pre fed policy also had higher taxes periodically.

Wilson sucked.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
You said it never happened. You don't know that.

Not in any meaningful way. We do know that

A few facts now and then would be nice.

Well put them out there.

You rarely say anything.

All I can really say is show me and you never do. All you do is play word games and "only if's".

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
You said it never happened. You don't know that.

Not in any meaningful way. We do know that

If it never happened there would be no sheet rock houses or pickup trucks.

It happened.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
If it never happened there would be no sheet rock houses or pickup trucks.

It happened.

No, not how you describe it has to be to be really free.

You flip flop on that all the time.

ETA: And how are 1913 US and 1894 UK free markets?

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
If it never happened there would be no sheet rock houses or pickup trucks.

It happened.

No, not how you describe it has to be to be really free.

You flip flop on that all the time.

ETA: And how are 1913 US and 1894 UK free markets?

The free market concept is free because it isolates the market from non economic variables. Like some physics examples disregard air resistance in motion equations. Early artillerists successfully used Newton's equations without including air resistance.

The real world free market would have no taxes or regulations. Any real free markets in the world would exist outside of States and empires, on frontiers or in Barbarian lands. Inside of civilization there has never been a real world free market.

The essence of every market is the free market. The reality of every market is arbitrary distortion of the price system and theft of the benefits of free trade by political power.

When there has been less distortion and theft the free market has done more. The Industrial Revolution happened at a time when, compared to today, there was a genuinely free market.

Without the FDA and gov in general, there would have been exponentially more biological advancement by way of the free market.

For example Extremely the fast growing and hardy hemp plant would be genetically engineered to make hydrocarbon chains, vitamins, amino acids or any number of hard to find biochemicals.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
The real world free market would have no taxes or regulations. Any real free markets in the world would exist outside of States and empires, on frontiers or in Barbarian lands. Inside of civilization there has never been a real world free market.

Then sheetrock and pickup trucks were not products of a free market.

When there has been less distortion and theft the free market has done more. The Industrial Revolution happened at a time when, compared to today, there was a genuinely free market.

You just flip flopped in the same post.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
The real world free market would have no taxes or regulations. Any real free markets in the world would exist outside of States and empires, on frontiers or in Barbarian lands. Inside of civilization there has never been a real world free market.

Then sheetrock and pickup trucks were not products of a free market.

When there has been less distortion and theft the free market has done more. The Industrial Revolution happened at a time when, compared to today, there was a genuinely free market.

You just flip flopped in the same post.

Everything is a product of the free market.

A real world completely free market would make more and better.

ETA

Without the FDA and gov in general, there would have been exponentially more biological advancement by way of the free market.

For example Extremely the fast growing and hardy hemp plant would be genetically engineered to make hydrocarbon chains, vitamins, amino acids or any number of hard to find biochemicals.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Everything is a product of the free market.

But not real ones

The real world free market would have no taxes or regulations.

A real world completely free market would make more and better.

Really, you seeing lots of products coming from "frontiers or Barbarian lands"?

Can you hook me up? I mean it must be cheaper as well.

ETA:

Without the FDA and gov in general,

Busted out the strawman again, huh?

I just said that sheetrock and pickup trucks were not products of free markets because you said that free markets would have no taxes or regulations, then you said every product is a product of free markets and... what?

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Everything is a product of the free market.

But not real ones

The real world free market would have no taxes or regulations.

A real world completely free market would make more and better.

Really, you seeing lots of products coming from "frontiers or Barbarian lands"?

Can you hook me up? I mean it must be cheaper as well.

ETA:

Without the FDA and gov in general,

Busted out the strawman again, huh?

I just said that sheetrock and pickup trucks were not products of free markets because you said that free markets would have no taxes or regulations, then you said every product is a product of free markets and... what?

By all means glory in your ignorance and incomprehension

Hallstatt swords

John Jacob Astor

a reply to: Semicollegiate

They are your words that are contradicting.

ETA: Oh, I'm sorry, those were examples. So these swords are better than swords made in non-free markets?

Mr. Astor made it rich in the US. Nothing free market about that either what with the regulations and taxes.


ETAEM: And nothing like a little help from monopolies and gov to prove free markets:

American fur company

By 1817 Astor had bought out his partners and gained control of the Mississippi Valley posts. He restructured the Southwest Fur Company as the Northern Department of the American Fur Company. He was well on his way to monopolizing the western fur trade.

John Jacob Astor

The Embargo Act from Thomas Jefferson in 1807, however, disrupted his import/export business. With the permission of President Jefferson, Astor established the American Fur Company on April 6, 1808.

edit on 9-4-2016 by daskakik because: (no reason given)

You know if you like socialism I hear Venezuela is thriving right now with their socialist economy. Hyperinflation, bread lines, price controls on toilet paper. Seems like paradise.

Actually the best "socialist" countries in Europe do a lot to protect business. Take Sweden for example, in the 70's they were becoming extremely socialist like every other nation in Europe at the time. A bunch of companies like Volvo, shut down operations in Sweden and they started to have an unemployment problem. The government then decided to ease up on some of the trade and tax laws to bring the companies back.

I've worked a lot of jobs at a lot of different companies and I have never seen any benefit to government involvement in business. I could write a book on it. The ACA is a great example of good intentioned programs that actually cause more harm than good. Hardly anyone wants to hire someone on at full time because the company has to provide health care benefits. So what do you have now? A bunch of part time workers, working 2-3 jobs.

a reply to: asmall89

Have you ever once, here on ATS, seen ANYONE say " I wish the men in DC would read all about text book communism and then run our country accordingly " ????????

Or... Have you more often seen people advocate for us emulating countries like Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Canada... ETC?

a reply to: asmall89

Well that's because you didn't work prior to 1913. I think you probably would have some issues with your factory job back then. Most likely they would only hire you to do back breaking and labour as the standard practice was to hire children and women because it was cheaper.

I also highly doubt you would rather work in an Indonesian sweat shop making basketballs.

I imagine working with the Yanomami Indians in the jungle of Brazil may bother you as well. They don't have a government and are egalitarian though.

Just because the government goes to far and needs to be corrected or revolted doesn't mean it isn't necessary.

Chances are the high standard of living you enjoy in part is because the government for the most part keeps barbarians from taking your stuff or employers from exploiting you.


Does that mean they don't go to far. No

Does that mean socialism is the answer no.

Its simply not black and white.


I used to enjoy working as a finish carpenter when I was younger. I worked with crews of illegals (black market without rights ). Those guys literally had to crap in drywall buckets and work for peanuts. If they got hurt they got fired.

reply to: daskakik


I see you ignored the core idea and the relevant information.

What is a free market to you?

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
I see you ignored the core idea and the relevant information.

What was that? That a few good swords were made in 6 BC or that Astor got permission from the president of the US to disregard the law and establish a monoply proves free markets?

I didn't miss it. It is proof to the contrary.

What is a free market to you?

I'm going by what you said they are and pointing out when you go against that.

a reply to: luthier

Just because the government goes to far and needs to be corrected or revolted doesn't mean it isn't necessary.

Why is gov necessary?

Because Hobbs said so?