1 Timothy 1:20 Turned over to Satan, by Paul

Most people just don't associate with people who they don't approve of in religious circles. So why does Paul turn two people over to Satan. Does he know Satan personally and give him souls from time to time? Not very forgiving, and kind of...evil.

1 Timothy 1:20
"By rejecting conscience, certain persons have suffered shipwreck in the faith; among them are Hymaneus and Alexander, whom I HAVE TURNED OVER TO SATAN, so that they may learn not to blaspheme."

There had to have been a better way to teach them than turning them over to Satan.

And how exactly does he turn someone over to Satan? And how did Satan teach them not to blaspheme? Isn't Satan pro-blasphemy?

Paul doesn't even have the power to turn someone over to Satan, he is fear mongering. He doesn't know Satan. Unless...

They made a pact.

a reply to: Solarmania
The phrase also turns up in 1 Corinthians ch5 v6. Paul complains that the church are allowing an adulterous man to live as part of their community, and they are doing nothing about it. His answer to the problem is "You are to deliver this man to Satan". It's clear from the context that this means "throw him out of the church". "Cleanse out the old leaven", he says a moment later, "do not associate with immoral men".

The theory which underlies it is that there are two dominions in the world; the dominion of Christ, which covers those who belong to him, and the dominion of Satan which covers the rest of the world.
So the act of expelling someone from the church is the equivalent of returning him to the dominion of Satan, which is the default option.

That is what he has done in the case of these two men. He has had them expelled from the community.


P.S. I see you're back. What religion are you claiming to belong to this time?

a reply to: Solarmania

These were people who had already given themselves over to sin and darkness. They were already in the kingdom of darkness and under satanic authority by their own choices. The church was essentially making official what was already the reality by the personal choice of these individuals.

This was not a unkind and evil act. On the contrary, the ultimate goal was their repentance and salvation. It was an act of church discipline. See the aforementioned passage:

1 Corinthians 5:4-5
When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Note that the goal of this act of church discipline was the restoration of this individual.

Satan is ever a hard taskmaster, never kind, never gentle, and never considerate of one's well-being. These people had made a decision to serve darkness and sin, to submit to satanic authority by willfully disobeying scripture and removing themselves from the spiritual covering of ecclesiastical authority. That decision would have a result in their lives, bringing about much negativity and destruction. Paul's admonition made the church and the individuals aware of the fact that they had submitted themselves to the kingdom of darkness and that that kingdom would cause destruction in their lives by publicly acknowledging that reality. It gave space for the fruit of that person's own bad choices to drive them to repentance.

If you'd continue reading the full counsel of scripture instead of yanking out random passages to argue over, you'd have seen that that was the end result in the Corinthian church where Paul later wrote in regards to that individual mentioned in the previously cited passage:

2 Corinthians 2:5-11
Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you. For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.

There is an old proverb:

The result of saving a fool from his folly is to fill the world with fools.

edit on 2016 4 07 by incoserv because: I could

a reply to: DISRAELI

Yeah, I don't by the excuse that deliver them to Satan means excommunication. He could have just said that, no reason to bring Satan into it unless you are hoping they get possessed sent to hell or otherwise **cked.

The people he delivered to Satan are the people he should be forgiving it he is being Christ like.

And what?

a reply to: incoserv

I don't care what sin they commited, there is no indication that they blasphemed the Holy Spirit and that is the only unforgivable sin.

These were people he once called brother and you don't treat your friends like that, turning them over to Satan shows Paul only cares about people who follow HIS rules and everyone who disagrees with him he says should be cursed.

He is a bad guy.

a reply to: Solarmania
There are two good reasons for expelling such people.
It is in the interests of the church, because otherwise they will remain and corrupt everybody else.
It's in their own interest as well, because being expelled may prompt them to reconsider, understand where they have gone wrong, and change their ways. Once they have changed their ways, they can be welcomed back into the church.

But you will never be able to understand Biblical things, because the willingness to understand is simply not there.
You just waste your own time and everybody else's time.

originally posted by: Solarmania
a reply to: incoserv

I don't care what sin they commited, there is no indication that they blasphemed the Holy Spirit and that is the only unforgivable sin.

These were people he once called brother and you don't treat your friends like that, turning them over to Satan shows Paul only cares about people who follow HIS rules and everyone who disagrees with him he says should be cursed.

He is a bad guy.

You should pay attention. Nobody ever said that they'd committed an unforgivable sin. The first passage I cited in I Corinthians 5 specifically said that the disciplinary act was for

the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord

The process of church discipline is always primarily for the restoration of the errant one, secondarily to guard the testimony of the church.

But it appears that you just want to be argumentative. Have at it.

a reply to: Solarmania
You've had two great responses, and I'm not going to repeat what they've already said. I'll just add, that Paul was being nice, and trying to help them in the long run. Down the road, they'll find themselves facing eternal damnation if they don't straighten their act up now. So throwing their butts out of the church now, might save their soul later, because once they're standing at the throne of judgement, it's a bit late for apologies. Biblically speaking, of course.

Oh, and welcome back. You could have just made one account, and stayed within the T&C's, and you wouldn't need to continually reinvent yourself.

a reply to: Klassified

You do know who this is don't you?

just watch.

Paul never says anything just for the sake of saying it, He gave them over to Satan and that is what he did. The power of an apostle is in the fact they could forgive and they be forgiven, and they could not forgive and they are damned. Peter and the others had it.

a reply to: incoserv

I didn't accuse you of saying they commited the unforgivable sin, I said it myself that they didn't because other than that sin they deserve forgiveness.

So you should pay attention and not me.

You just don't turn your friends over to Satan. Sin is to be forgiven, not punished by Paul turning you over to Satan.

How many people have not sinned? One, and that person said " Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Paul is a sinner, he shouldn't be judging and he shouldn't be associating with Satan. But they must be friends because Paul gives him people who don't obey Paul.

a reply to: Klassified

You think they are great responses, I think they are poor excuses.

But I guess anybody who doesn't agree with your opinion is wrong?

Sounds like something Paul would think.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Solarmania
There are two good reasons for expelling such people.
It is in the interests of the church, because otherwise they will remain and corrupt everybody else.
It's in their own interest as well, because being expelled may prompt them to reconsider, understand where they have gone wrong, and change their ways. Once they have changed their ways, they can be welcomed back into the church.

But you will never be able to understand Biblical things, because the willingness to understand is simply not there.
You just waste your own time and everybody else's time.

I understand better than you, apparently, because you follow a man who claims he heard a voice in the desert that was the dead and risen Jesus.

Understand that just because I don't like Paul, doesn't mean I don't understand. Maybe it's YOU who doesn't understand because you don't want to admit you have been swindled by a dead for 2000 years false prophet.

I think it's clear who doesn't understand because of a lack of willingness. A lack of willingness to fight lies and liars, enemies of Christ like Paul.

originally posted by: Solarmania
a reply to: Klassified

You think they are great responses, I think they are poor excuses.

But I guess anybody who doesn't agree with your opinion is wrong?

Sounds like something Paul would think.

If I didn't want people disagreeing with me, I wouldn't bother coming here(hint). I understand you've made up your mind about Paul, and Peter too obviously, since he testified Paul was a brother in Christ, and his teachings are sound. That's fine with me. But you're on an open forum, and when you post a thread, you're going to get feedback. Some will agree, some will not. But everyone is allowed an opinion.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate.

Reply to Klassified:

I like Peter fine and don't for a second believe he actually wrote that because they clearly hated each other as is recorded in acts. Paul "rebukes" Peter according to Luke.

So no way do I believe that that is a legitimate quote and even Eusebius (pretty sure) said that the most likely inauthentic books of the NT are the writings of Peter and a few others.

Christianity is the Roman version of Messianic Judaism and Paul was its founder. The Jewish Messianics hated Paul, and Paul hated them. All this is recorded in the bible, acts and the letters of Paul make Paul the hero and the apostles "Judaizers" and villains if you study the letters of Paul he is constantly insulting the real Apostles.

How people don't understand thisis beyond comprehension. People think that Paul was accepted by the Apostles and that he spoke to Jesus, but his story is not believable and Matthew 24:23 explicitly warns about Paul, who fulfilled the prophecy to a T.

Read Matthew 24:23

Tell me Paul doesn't fit the prophecy.

Jesus never confirmed Paul as a prophet when he spoke to John in Revelation. If Paul had spoken to Jesus, Jesus would have told his chosen Apostles about him then.

But he didn't, he actually confirmed that there are only 12 Apostles making Paul a liar for saying he spoke to Jesus and by calling himself Apostle when he isn't.

That, my friend, is a false prophet. A Roman infiltrator with no morals.

It's believed by scholar of the Bible and the Dead Sea Scrolls Professor Eisenman that the Damascus document is an excommunication letter from James to Paul. I have looked intoit and he is on to ssomething.

The Paul is a false prophet movement is growing because it's even provable just using the Bibleand ppeople read his story and his letters and find him to be an unsavory character who was actually quite mad.

He turned the Messiah into God, something Jesus would never have approved of. He was anti-Torah and James summoned him to make him prove he was still walking in the Way. He pays lip service to James because he still needs his endorsement but as soon as he returns to his followers he lies about what happened and continues his falseteachings.

People who believe Paul are people who don't follow the true teachings of Yeshua, they analyze Paul's writings so much because they need to invent excuses for his constant lying and contradictions.

The guy was a complete lowlife and charlatan.

Oh how unique. A Paul bashing thread.

Haven't seen one of these in a while.

/sarcasm

a reply to: Solarmania
Your whole post just proves what I've said before. A person has two choices concerning scripture. Either it's all the word of god, or none of it is the word of god. If god isn't capable of keeping his message to humans pure and unadulterated, then he is no god, and the bible is mythology from cover to cover. If it is his word, then it must be accepted in its entirety, whether or not it is understood.

As one who spent many years as a Christian, and is now an atheist, there's one thing I haven't changed my mind on. Paul's epistles, studied together with old and new testament, make sense in the bigger picture of Christianity. Those epistles belong there as much as Homer's Iliad belongs with his Odyssey. It's not that I have a dog in this fight, but this debate fascinates me, and I'm always entertained by the reasons put forth by others that Paul was a demon in disguise.

In the end, it matters not whether Paul's writings are sanctified, because they go well with the story of Judaism and Christianity. Which is what the bible is. A story. An epic work of fiction equal to any handed down to us from the ancient world. Whatever one may think of the writer of Paul's epistles, he was certainly an intellectual.

a reply to: TerryDon79

I thought this was a website for discussing conspiracies, what is a bigger conspiracy than that the founder of Roman Christianity was a false prophet and enemy ofthe Apostles ochosen by the Messiah himself? It is even in the bible if you actually study the whole New Testament you can easily see that the Jewish branch was subdued by the Romans and then expelled.

Sounds like a conspiracy to me. I mean, you have to be pretty blind not to see that Paul lied about his hearing Jesus voice and had intentions of teaching what Christ taught only of making a new religion for Rome and being the leader based off a false claim that he spoke to Jesus.

But the most intelligent thing you could think to add was a complaint about the content of the thread YOU clicked on. This aint a pop up add it's a place to discuss Paul, the false prophet.

a reply to: Solarmania

If you used half as much energy you used to write this thread to using a simple search, you would find numerous threads already on exactly the same thing.

So how many usernames you up to now?

a reply to: Klassified

Your logic is forget the truth (sanctified) because YOU think it's a good story? Look at the history of Roman Christianity and tell me that his teachings didn't have a terrible influence on the world.

And your incorrect because the truth does matter, even if you don't like it and prefer the liar to the truth of the Messiah.

So take your love of lies and have a good life, I will be busy exposing the truth. Because the truth ALWAYS matters, even if it is shocking.

a reply to: TerryDon79

Old threads. Gotta keep it fresh, and this particular topic has no thread because I did look.

There are a good 20 different ways to prove Paul is a false prophet, so get used to it.

I spend my energy how I want to and am not looking for advice on how to spend it.

And you said something about user names. Being a new member I am guessing that you think I am someone else. I am not. I don't know if you are trying to get me banned because you don't like what I have to say, but you don't have to be such a sneak. I have the same rights as every member and last time I checked you choose the thread you want. You can always ignore me.