Why is Socialism so heavily disliked?

This is going to take me a while to follow the whole thread and catch up,

But I wonder if you guys have all agreed on what you are referring to here?

There is a automatic repulsion by Americans to some things that they call "socialism" but that are not "socialism" as the rest of the world considers it.

Like in some countries there is a national health insurance coverage, and the Americans call that "Socialism". Even if there remains private care and medicine providers , and the individual has full freedom of choice in medicine and care, there is competition in the market that keeps the prices lower and the quality high- all aspects that are not part of Socialism as the rest of the world understands it. There is private ownership, capitalist economy, and yet, for Americans, it is therefore a "Socialist" country.

I tired of making this argument long ago, and just decided to roll with the special vocabulary of the American mind-controlled consumer- when we talk of Socialism I also use it to refer to such programs, to facilitate communication.

But if we're going to be serious here, we have to make the distinction....

originally posted by: Bluesma

Like in some countries there is a national health insurance coverage, and the Americans call that "Socialism".

Would you dispute that the majority of collectivists who advocate for this in these united States are self identified socialists?

Don't be misled. Socialism isn't "highly disliked" at all. Nearly every country in the world employs socialism at the national or local level. There's an entire ideology called "Christian Socialism" which is used throughout many Christian-majority countries in the world. Arab countries typically operate under a version of the ideology "Arab Socialism". And the incredible social safety nets in most wealthy countries make up some of the best perks of those countries.

However, there was also this little affair called the "Cold War". For almost 50 years, communism, socialism, and everything else involving a form of Marxism was demonized in the US. We had huge "Red Scare" campaigns which were reminiscent of the anti-Islam fearmongering we see today. And the world was filled with proxy battles between capitalist countries (called "1st world countries") and Eastern European communist countries (called "2nd world countries"), in an attempt to ally with and control the rest of the world (called "third world countries").

This last part is the most important part because the capitalist governments typically used right wing administrations, regimes, and paramilitaries as their proxy armies; while the Eastern communist governments empowered the communist, socialist, and indigenous movements as their proxy armies. And many of the "3rd world" nations wanted no part in either side, which made them targets by both sides (though many of those countries still adopted socialism as a way to remedy the economic injustices caused during Western & Japanese Imperialism).

Needless to say, if you were in a Western military or law enforcement during the Cold War, you were probably brainwashed to hate leftist groups & ideologies. And Western European populations were also pushed to fear the Left through NATO's anti-left wing campaign called "Operation Gladio".

The West had a similar campaign against the left wing in Latin America called Operation Condor, where we trained & funded right wing militias, paramilitaries, and regimes. Not only did they suppress and crush Latin American left wing movements, but the US would also invade these countries when deemed necessary. For example, President Obama's recent trip to Argentina was because it was marking the 40th anniversary of its "Dirty War" that happened in the Cold War. He apologized for America's role in it & released a lot of documents about it (though most people here ignored all of that and only focused on the "controversy" of him & his wife dancing the Tango with professional dancers).

Crap. Didn't mean to type this much. Umm, basically socialism isn't disliked. Governments all over the world use it to an extent. However, many people in the US grew up being told it was the devil incarnate, especially the older generations. So they hate it even though many ironically rely on socialist programs like Social Security and Medicare in their daily lives.

a reply to: Vector99

Because we can just rainbows and unicorns?

No, because of Lee Kuan Yew and Marshal Tito. As previously mentioned.

Yet you have internet access.

I have lived many years, that is true, and many changes have taken place in my country during my lifetime.

INSANELY small population for such a modernized country.

You keep harping on this as if it is relevant. Actually, Singapore has one of the highest population densities in the world. They have so little land to spare, they keep most of their air force in Australia.

As I suspected. Please don't take that as an insult. You are cultured, and that is that. You will live your culture no matter who it may upset, even if it upsets you. While I can respect that, I can NEVER understand it.

This is the exact conflict in western and eastern thinking. Western thinking will allow you to drop those ideals and beliefs, and while you might mentally judge the culture it breeds, you will also be judged by it.

Just because I have replied to you politely, do not think your presumptions are inoffensive. You know nothing about me or my culture aside from what I have just told you, and the guesses you are evidently making about these things are as wrong as your casual assumption of ‘Western’ superiority. And now I have now answered more than enough of your questions.

originally posted by: Astyanax
Why don’t you ask the Chinese? They seem to manage it quite effectively.

The Chinese Communist Party and the associated apparatus that keeps China a one-party dictatorship does very well indeed. The average Chinese does not. China is a control state, rather than a socialist state. China is profoundly anti-democratic.

Theories aside, in modern "European" parlance, socialism is state involvement to the extent that it impacts society positively. In Europe, democracy the norm, so what "socialism" is, is also subject to change and evolution.

Here's my problem with socialism or any of its aspects:
WHY should I pay my very hard earned money to pay for someone that would rather sit on his butt eating cheetoes?
THAT my friends is the issue.
All these people that want a socialist country, they want all this FREE crap, they want everything shared with everyone else.
Only one problem: someone has to PAY FOR IT.
You want free college, you want free medical benefits? Thats great. Would be nice if you could get your 4 year degree and not be in debt for tens of thousands of dollars for years.
You get sick, just walk into your local health provider and get taken care of, with no huge bill.
Again someone has to pay for all it.
The basic definition of socialism is 'everyone contributes to the whole'
What does that mean?
EVERYONE contributes. not just the few. EVERYONE. That means YOU, the cheeto-eating, couch riding potato has to contribute as well to the community. You dont contribute, you get nothing.
Nada. Zip. Zilch.
I can hear you saying it now. "Oh I'll contribute. I'll work toward the community goals!"
Baloney.
Straight out BS.
If you WERE going to contribute, you'd be out working NOW, earning a paycheck, instead of living in mommy's or daddy's basement, enjoying those cheetoes bought with your EBT card.
No, you JUST want the stuff, you just dont want to pay for it.
EVERYONE pulling their fair share of the weight is still paying for that free crap.

So no, you dont want socialism, you want free crap someone ELSE pays for.

It's a glitzy pyramid scheme with up front brilliant wonderment, love, and opulence. Then the back end overtakes the front end when the system runs out of other peoples money. Human nature takes root and everyone decides to sit on their butt and let the system provide for them while they refuse to contribute to that system. No one works, nothing gets done, no food, no housing, no products to buy, no one wants to provide services like fixing anyone's anything. The whole system implodes upon itself as instance after instance is recorded in history.

a reply to: tkwasny

My feelings exactly!!! Why does noone get it???

originally posted by: HomerinNC
a reply to: tkwasny

My feelings exactly!!! Why does noone get it???

Simple. Because they are ignorant (willfully or otherwise) of the fact that government owns only one resource; the monopoly on the use of force. Any other good or service, tangible or otherwise that government may have in its grasp is ill gotten through use of force... the proverbial end of a gun. Theft.

a reply to: HomerinNC

Your assessment posted just above mine is flawless and most accurate.

IMO nothing that socialist have ever done has benefited the population. It only benefits the government. Which in itself is the problem. People want to make their own decisions. People do not want the government in their lives. Sure their are few countries that are socialist that exist but at what cost to the people themselves.

originally posted by: lydie15

originally posted by: ErrorErrorError
Why is it disliked on ATS ? One of the reasons is that many members believe that socialism is communism, thanks in large part to the Cold War.

Which is interesting, because from my understanding, Socialism and Communism are not the same...

Communism = all property belongs to the state. You rent an apartment or house with the rent based on the quality of the home. If you want to move to somewhere else, you are only allowed to move somewhere else that is equivalent to your current residence. The problem is then that the slightest improvements you make to the property only end up with you paying more rent. This is the case in Cuba.

Capitalism = Anyone can own property if they can afford too. The problem here is that some areas are just not worth buying into. Other areas become so valuable that speculators jump in and jack up the prices. Allowing international investors to enter the country and suddenly there is no housing available for locals. If property is affordable to locals, then it becomes upgraded and improved until first time-buyers can't afford those units.

Socialism = More of a mix of the two - some housing units are owned by the state and rented out. Private property ownership is allowed. There will be taxes on high wage earners and bonuses. Countries like Norway and France are socialist, but parts of the health care system like dentists are privately run.

a reply to: paraphi

China is a control state, rather than a socialist state.

Quite right. As I implied, it is an absolutist (what you call a ‘control’) state.

China is profoundly anti-democratic.

Do you regard this as relevant? In what way?

The average Chinese does not.

In what way exactly does the average Chinese not do well?

originally posted by: Vector99
Because people are narcissistic and feel the need to be "better" than another.

without compitition you wouldn't enjoy the life you do today. It's disturbing how short-sighted folks like you are.

a reply to: blood0fheroes

Simple. Because they are ignorant (willfully or otherwise) of the fact that government owns only one resource; the monopoly on the use of force. Any other good or service, tangible or otherwise that government may have in its grasp is ill gotten through use of force... the proverbial end of a gun. Theft.

It is not theft. It is a bargain, which some people now think they can renege upon. They will learn their mistake.

a reply to: Astyanax

I have lived many years, that is true, and many changes have taken place in my country during my lifetime.

As have I, I too was born before the internet.

You keep harping on this as if it is relevant.

Only because it is.

they keep most of their air force in Australia.

Just ponder that statement. Sit and think about it please.

Just because I have replied to you politely, do not think your presumptions are inoffensive. You know nothing about me or my culture aside from what I have just told you, and the guesses you are evidently making about these things are as wrong as your casual assumption of ‘Western’ superiority. And now I have now answered more than enough of your questions.

This is the difference between your culture and mine. You take offense to things. I don't. I'm not a typical westerner, you cannot ever offend me with words. I CAN offend you with words, even if it is unintentional. You will now hold a view of me that probably will never change. You have your values, I have mine. I will NEVER be offended by a simple discussion with another like you will. I guess that is a western thing that you can't understand.

originally posted by: TheBulk

originally posted by: Vector99
Because people are narcissistic and feel the need to be "better" than another.

without compitition you wouldn't enjoy the life you do today. It's disturbing how short-sighted folks like you are.

You obviously like to predicate your preconceived notions of another individual. I'm the short-sighted one?

a reply to: Astyana
A bargain in what way? A contract?
As I see it, involuntary taxation is the same "bargain" the average mugger would offer - comply and you might keep your life.

originally posted by: Vector99

originally posted by: TheBulk

originally posted by: Vector99
Because people are narcissistic and feel the need to be "better" than another.

without compitition you wouldn't enjoy the life you do today. It's disturbing how short-sighted folks like you are.

You obviously like to predicate your preconceived notions of another individual. I'm the short-sighted one?

Yes, suggesting that competition is "narcissism" is idiotic.

a reply to: lydie15

Excellent OP. F/S. I believe it is due to general ignorance, mass disinformation, GREED, and lack of empathy. Lot of that going around. You can talk and post sources until your fingers and lips bleed, and some people just won't listen.

Ya can't fix (or convince) stupid. Especially stubborn stupidity...