Why is Socialism so heavily disliked?

a reply to: MystikMushroom

I know some Germans that would say it's quite true...
www.telegraph.co.uk...

Dissonance is from the LEFT,TRADITION is more right.

originally posted by: CB328

Socialism's effects on the people, the markets, and the environment, turned out to be disasterous

THat's ironic, since capitalism almost destroyed the entire world economy a few years back, meanwhile, most of the best countries in the world where people are happy and have a good standard of living are socialist.

Capitalism is good on a small scale, but when capitalists get political power it's incredibly destructive as we see now in the US.

No. You must remind yourself that this person was talking about real socialism, as the theory describes it and as it is practiced in only a few countries in the world (China, Laos, Vietnam and Cuba, I believe).

You are thinking of the countries with Capitalist economies and a strong social security net, such as the countries of northern Europe (Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, France...). These are not Socialist countries, but in America, with the exagerrated value upon individuality and repulsion to collective power, they are commonly referred to by the uneducated as Socialist examples. That is false though. (and yes they do have a larger predominant middle class with a better quality of life).

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
What administration decided it was a good idea to tax the populous (were they using the Roman model; as able to successfully to do so for 600 years). What to your mind ruined the grand plan?

I chuckled when I read this, and my comment is not really meant for you, it was just a thought brought to light by your comment-

What is funny/ironic is that in the US, it is commonly considered that the left/Socialists are all for higher taxes,

When here in France it is the opposite! Unlike the US, there is a Communist and Socialist party- they do not need to hide, people are free to join those parties if they want (though the Communist party remains very unpopular).
The Socialists believe that no taxes are necessary, because the government (they tend to refer to it like it is an entity- as the Americans do) surely has a vaste storehouse of money hidden away they just are not letting go of. They can pay for much more, without asking for taxes.

It is a highly irrational idea and the main objection of those on the right, who claim that it is a matter of what the officials (referred to as separate individual people, not one giant entity) decide to spend it on that makes the difference. In any case, taxes are necessary.



Note :
Separate individuals have little power faced with a giant entity made of many.
Consider that carefully when listening to the repeated ideals of your sacred individualism, and the Unity of the US Government entity.
They have been very sneaky and smart.

originally posted by: Drawsoho
You re not in France? Your ATS location is marked as France.
Web chatter does make a difference - you'd be surprised how
many ideas, memes and issues foment through the literate
web.
As long as socialist, communist and capitalist elites are in
control of all aspects of life, there isn't much hope any
political system will make conditions better for the
many impoverished people out there.

a reply to: Bluesma

Yes, I am in France. What makes you think otherwise?

Yes, as I pointed out, there is a value in discussing political issues amongst others, even for a culture that refuses to bond together over them like us Americans. We turn against each other and fight each other instead of our government officials, but in the process we determine our personal opinions and positions we shall use in voting.
We can sometimes even influence the opinions of others that they shall use in voting.
So it could have a indirect and delayed impact on politics.
(though I perceive that Americans in the majority only get involved in voting when it is time for Presidential elections, unfortunately- the rest of the time they let them do what they want).


My point was that since it is only used to turn individuals against individuals in conflict, it IS possibly best to be kept away from the dinner table, or family reunions, where one would like to create a bonding ambiance instead.
For us Americans, it is probably more respectful to do our conflicts online than with the grandparents we haven't seen for years....

In some other countries, talking politics is bonding, as people join each other in enthusiasm, unafraid of seeming to be "part of a herd" or lacking strong individualism in that moment. So for them, political chat in such get togethers isn't unwelcome.

originally posted by: Bluesma

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
What administration decided it was a good idea to tax the populous (were they using the Roman model; as able to successfully to do so for 600 years). What to your mind ruined the grand plan?

bluesma: I chuckled when I read this, and my comment is not really meant for you, it was just a thought brought to light by your comment- What is funny/ironic is that in the US, it is commonly considered that the left/Socialists are all for higher taxes,

I have to interject; I am a Frenchie born in Chaumont; now a US citizen.

bluesma: When here in France it is the opposite! Unlike the US, there is a Communist and Socialist party- they do not need to hide, people are free to join those parties if they want (though the Communist party remains very unpopular).
The Socialists believe that no taxes are necessary, because the government (they tend to refer to it like it is an entity- as the Americans do) surely has a vaste storehouse of money hidden away they just are not letting go of. They can pay for much more, without asking for taxes.

There is no money. Let the people know! The circus tent is about to blow away; there is no such thing as FORT KNOX GOLD STORAGE archive (that gold was sold to China long ago long gone). This economy is based upon false paper money with nothing other to back it but State, Federal and BLM land worths/holdings which is being sold off methodically to the Saudis, Germany and England. We here in the US have the idea Socialism leads to Communism and those systems will by historical relevance become corrupt and unsustainable. There is a fear of creeping potential dictatorship. Free enterprise/Capitalism is the name of the game. We as children read "Animal Farm" and "1984", "Lord of the Flies" and believe it. Socialism is a specter of EVIL. Socialism can work with a small country; but we have 350 million here and 20 million of them are illegal sucking the system.

Bluesma: It is a highly irrational idea and the main objection of those on the right, who claim that it is a matter of what the officials (referred to as separate individual people, not one giant entity) decide to spend it on that makes the difference. In any case, taxes are necessary.

My problem is where the taxes are being spent; because we are not given a P and L statement (from .gov) at the end of its fiscal cycle SPENDING FREE FOR ALL.

Bluesma: Note : Separate individuals have little power faced with a giant entity made of many.
Consider that carefully when listening to the repeated ideals of your sacred individualism, and the Unity of the US entity.
They have been very sneaky and smart.

To a POINT HIDE STUFF because we are perceived as little children. This sitting President of ours is a disgrace; (worst ever in our great history). This election cycle the most fun I have seen since voting age..anyone but Hillary Clinton.

a reply to: lydie15

I would guess its disliked because it is a threat to capitalism and wealth. An information war has been waged for years to make it this way and protect power structures

originally posted by: flyandi
Socialism will never work - it's the most corruptible system in the world - ask anyone living in a system like this.

What we need is the robotic evolution so we stop bickering around.

At the present level of deregulation and bought off politicians, capitalism is at least as corrupt a system. Bank bailouts, outsourcing, and outright theft. Nowhere to go but up at this point.

Sorry but I thought you would take your wife to
visit, misread obviously, and thought you were
not there.

Summarizing peoples' thoughts here it seems to
be agreed that the individual has no influence
in policy making, powerless without the support
of many. Even then only a few are making the
decisions that affect everyone.

Calling for the robot to rule is less than human,
leaving people bereft of a spiritual leader. With
the current systems in parts of the world, some
work better than others but none is perfect. We
must deal with that, and until and if the power-
brokers release people from tyranny, fascism
and totalitarianism, can human suffering can
be abated and reduced to almost none.

a reply to: Bluesma

originally posted by: ErrorErrorError

originally posted by: burgerbuddy
U.S.S.R.

The goal of socialism is communism. Vladimir Lenin

Maybe that's why?

www.brainyquote.com...

And Karl Marx said that "Democracy leads to socialism"

And if not stated already, Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting for supper choices. We are a Republic where the only thing democratic USE TO BE the election cycles and SC Judges. Now mob rule is democratic and Marx was right on that one after all. After the mob runs wild socialism is offered as a form of peace settlement and the deliberately long march to Communism is on.

a reply to: lydie15

That second comment by Einstein sums it all up if you ask me. Not to try & sound like another opinionated arm-chair philosopher, but in my experience it seems to me that today's capitalism is unsustainable self-absorption fueled by economic classism and corporate socioeconomic exploitation. The only good capitalism ever did was spur the technological revolution, which would have probably happened anyway. In any case, it has long since out-lived its usefulness.

It's also fueled or contributed to at least 80% of the world's conflicts over the past few thousand years and especially since WW1 (I pulled that % out of my ass, but it sounds reasonable - conservative, even). But then a lot of people blame fascism-tainted socialism for that, too... but the same could be said about fascism-tainted capitalism, so the argument goes on and on and round and round while millions starve to death and suffer poverty because they aren't deemed worthy of human life by those with 'employment opportunities'. So the volunteer slaves reject those who can't or won't submit to economic serfdom. Try telling me that's a rational system of human civilization without sounding cruel & stupid and I'll give you a thousand bucks.

It's all a big joke quite frankly, but not a funny one. Don't try to make too much sense out of it, because in my experience of long pondering, it's impossible to ever truly make sense of. Just know that human beings are the problem; not the ideologies. In theory we have it all worked out. In practice we have a loooooong way to go, unfortunately, and needless to say. And it's not as simple as 'educating' each other about the ideologies. It's a matter of species-wide intellectual evolution and ethical revolution, which seems more impossible each day. But let's hope one day we come to our senses and develop a contingency plan before it's too late.

TLDR; Screw capitalism, screw cronyism, screw totalitarianism and screw socioeconomic manipulation & exploitation. I don't know if socialism is the answer, but I do know for certain that what we have in place governing our 'modern' world today is broken beyond repair and contributing rapidly to our collective suicide. We need radical new political and economic systems appropriate to and compatible with our technological and scientific standards and levels of development. It's becoming more and more apparent that we're living in a doomed culture of political and economical corruption of every form.

But that's just my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong, and everything's fine the way it is. It's up to the world to decide for themselves I guess.

a reply to: Astyanax

If taxes are made voluntary, very few people will pay any taxes.

Do you suppose this is indicative of the quality of government received?
A metaphor. " Sure, its true that restaurant serves up steaming cow manure, but it's the only restaurant around, so we have to pay for it..."

The idea I have been trying to get across is perhaps if the product received isn't worth paying for - then the answer is not to mandate payment. Further, if the product received IS worthwhile, people will voluntarily wait in line to pay for it.

Because Socialism takes more from those to work hard, learn well and succeed to cover people who don't...including ones who don't even try. Added to that, what is taken (money) is taken by a corrupt American government that will take from that money to build itself larger and likely will keep the majority of it for itself, in one way or another.

originally posted by: blood0fheroes
Further, if the product received IS worthwhile, people will voluntarily wait in line to pay for it.

I guess you can see then, while some countries like this one, the people don't feel "oppressed" when they pay taxes. They are getting back some of the best quality healthcare in the world and lots of other things they are happy with.

If they weren't happy with it, they'd go on strike nationally and get it changed within a couple of days!

Probably stems from the confusion of socialism=communism

The happiest and best counties to live in generally are democratic and capitalist with a strong social safety net. Canada and the Scandinavian countries come to mind

a reply to: LibraJustice

That is actually the truth, they are also the country's with the least inequality, I am not certain about Canada though as though as it is essentially two country's if and then there are the indigenous people whom have suffered discrimination nearly as bad as in the US for many years with a extremely high number of native woman missing and probably murdered every year.

But Canada aside a recent poll showed that to be absolutely accurate, those nations with a strong welfare system and less inequality also enjoyed the highest happiness rating's from a broad spectrum of people questioned and also the highest average quality of life with Denmark or Norway at the top if I remember.

benign capitalism is the future. it will have elements of socialism.

a reply to: Bluesma

Precisely! Now for a thought experiment - in this modern electronic age, could it be possible to have a system where people not only self assess their tax liability, but also direct exactly what percentage of taxes paid goes to which particular function of government?

I can imagine most would choose to apply the largest % to things like maintaining infrastructure, education, etc.and very small allocations to things like war, and government civilian salaries.

a reply to: LABTECH767

So move there. Where am I to move if I don't want those things? If I like the way we do things here in the USA? Where am I to go?

a reply to: Dfairlite

I understand your concern, the US view of socialism is as a Red Menace which could not be further from the truth, do you really wan't to see broken people on the street's like the infamous Bag Lady's etc or would you rather see society cleaned up in a constructive way by housing these people, providing medical care and mental health and ensuring that children are no longer born into poverty?.

Making the poor better off does not impoverish the rich, it just mean's they have to pay there fair share of the tax burden as they have made there money off of the economy of there nation (in most cases) and so it is giving back a small percentage of what they have gained from that economy.

It also boosts retail sales which boosts production and logistic's job's as the welfare payment's will never be enough to save up (So state pension's are a fundamental part of a healthy economic welfare state and also since contribution for them are taken at the pay roll stage they help to leave the rest of the pay the employee picks up for spending on other thing's without being bamboozled by corrupt hedge fund managers whom are selling them dodgy pension schemes that will fold when they come to retire), what the state hand's out is spent quickly on food, rent, -
(Even if the accommodation is state provided and for another serious problem of the 20th and 21st century's there should be control to ensure that state handout's do not pay for drugs etc with enforced and if necessary penal punishment for using welfare to pay for drug habit's as in the black market it does no good and is effectively lost money as fare as the
economy is then concerned)

- and utility bill's.

State sponsorship for private enterprise which provides jobs but reducing the tax burden based on number of employee's through a process colloquially called state Subsidies is also a factor in a progressive liberal social economic society with state ownership of some essential utilitys such as power, water and transportation infrastructure such as road networks etc.

In fact some of this your nation the United States already has but it has faced the ferocious right wing whom have demonised it at ever turn using everything from outright lies to comparison's to Hitlers Germany and the Soviet Union to turn people against it.

At it's heart the British model of Socialism under OLD LABOUR was the best example it was ruined by two thing's.

Ever time Labour got into power the money men conspired to move the money offshore and also the internal menace of Militant which were a communist movement that hijacked the Trades Union's of the UK and also some local Labour Seat's, the backlash against Millitant sadly gave rise to NEW LABOUR which was just another Tory Party, this was a sad time for British politics and today the repercussion's are that both Scotland and Wales have very strong independance movements intent of breaking the British union apart, the Success of the SNP and Plaid Cymru is directly the result of NEW LABOUR policy's being so far to the right when nearly all Scotsmen and the majority of Welsh are actually Socialist in there view's and felt that NEW LABOUR had effectively abandoned there nation's within the UK focusing only on the right wing view of about slightly less than half of the English Votors, we do not have a proportional representation system in the UK so remember this as to understand how the right wing have always gotten in to power despite being very unpopular you have to understand it is because they look after there own county's and interest's at the expence of other's county's and the poor and always have.

The USA is different as you have such a melting pot of different people's that getting them to feel altruistic toward there neighbour whom is culturally and racially often totally different may be a lot harder.

We are quite a diverse society as well today in the UK though not as diverse, get this though it is Socialist view's that are more embracing and Right wing views that are more discriminatory as a general rule of thumb.

So to recap when we say socialism in the UK and other western European country's it is not like what you imagine, free enterprise is essential not outlawed as in a communist idiology, freedom of social movement as well so no matter how low you are born you can achieve the unthinkable even reaching to the seat of the prime minister is another fundemental (sound familiar).

In a runaway free capitalist society there is no safety net, no way out of the gutter and youth anger turn's to crime, violence and despair often erupting in gang violence and a dangerous underworld of crime which feeds on the social injustice (Sound familiar).

Socialism is not Communism, it does not outlaw or persecute free enterprise though it DOES make it play fairly and pay it's way as it is all about ethic's.