Decline of Church attendance...?

a reply to: Klassified

No. Christianity is a lie. It has always been a lie, and it will always be a lie, whether or not you accept it as such. It is just like every other religion that claims to be the "truth", and the "only way to god". And it's adherents are often just as arrogant as those other religions Christianity claims are false religions of the devil. The truth is, none of you are right. You are all deceived.

I understand and respect your rejection of Christ, but how do you know for sure that His death for our sins is a lie?

To my knowledge, Christianity is the only system of faith which offers Unlimited Atonement for sin based on the substitutionary spiritual and physical death of God Himself as our servant and representative. No other religion teaches that. Every other religion is based on some form of merit for eternal security; gnosis, enlightenment, asceticism, works, dominionism.

When I look at world religions, Christianity seems to stick out like a sore thumb. So I can see why you would say all religion is the same because they all try to tell us what we can do for God, but Christianity is not a religion in that sense. It teaches what God did and continues to do for us.
Doesn't that in itself merit a closer inspection???

Maybe its just me, but it seems like you are more bitter towards Christianity than you used to be, at least more recently.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Seems to me churches aren't going anywhere, at least in my area they're not. I can think of 30+ churches (maybe more) around my local area alone. It's ridiculous how many there are around me, much less the entire country. There are probably 6 or 7 "mega churches" and the rest are smaller ones, but damn I can't go around one corner without seeing one or two of them. I live in the South though so that may be why.

I lived in Miami for 21 years before move up to the Blue Ridge Mountains. In Miami, I saw a few Catholic Churches here and there, maybe a handful of Protestant Churches in the entirety of Miami-Dade county. Where I live now, there are more Churches than I have ever seen in my life, and its so unnecessary. They all teach the same watered down crap. Its not quantity that counts, but quality.

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: Rex282
True enough.

There are some of us who escape the clutches of religion. It isn't easy, and it takes years of de-programming, but it can and does happen. Many non-religious/agnostics/atheists/ in the west were once Christians.

Personally, I really don't mind people having their religion/faith until they start preaching it at and to others, claiming you must believe like them or else... I don't think anyone must believe like me. Why would anyone want to? Be yourself. Be who YOU are. Don't give away your autonomy and individuality to a collective. Don't be assimilated.

Yes that’s the point..believing like someone else is futile since even what they believe isn’t true either…its a catch 22.The fact is if there is a creator God they would be VERY capable of communicating to a person.That is the only logical way to know a creator God and circumvent religion-religion Belief System religion which makes ALL religion of a God a moot point.Even what some people perceive as a better religion God is full of the “But’s”of..." you can do/believe so and so BUT!"…..there is always a But.It may as well be the BUT religion because the BUT is always the most pertinent point to the true believer.

The fact is it would be futile to communicate “knowing” a creator God through an intermediary of ANY kind because it automatically becomes belief through faith which is what the BUT religions really worship.EVERYTHING they do is contingent upon THEIR belief through faith…and that is your very salient point..they are more concerned about you believing what they believe instead of KNOWING the truth which makes sense because.... they don’t know!

However it is a true double edges sword.As I stated before thank GOD for their religion or the world would be in more chaos than it is now.Their religion-religious belief compels them to act more ethical and moral than their nature and character.If not for that this world would truly be a hell on earth.

Of course the optimum would be they would just Mea Culpa to their false Belief System religion beliefs however I am positive that is not going to happen for the majority.Many are called few are chosen to be freed from their religion-religion in this world.That’s just the way it is.Nothing but a creator God can change(repent) them and that act seems to be reserved for after their physical death.

I wish it didn’t work that way however it does and must be so for a very good reason.If there is a creator God I am content with them being God and me not being God.I’m sure that is closer to a true reality than any religion.

I thought of this awhile back.
I have been to church every sunday this year. My youngest daughter is having her first communion and confession come may. One of the requirements is church attendance.
Well you would think it was a metallica concert every sunday. I find myself having to leave 30 minites early, just to enure we get a seat. People litterally triple and quadruple park in the lot. After church it take close to 30 minutes just to get out of the parking lot.
I live in a city of 100,000. There are churches almost every couple of blocks in any direction.

This Easter sunday was a complete abortion in there. I knew it was gonna be busy so we left 45 minutes early, and by christ, when we got there, the fricken lot was already jam packed full of idiots. We got into the church 25 minutes before mass started and already it was standing room only. We had to stand in the main hall with about 30 others.
The priest is very funny, and i actually enjoy going to listen to him. he's Pakistani, with a hell of a humour. He makes the service enjoyable everytime.
I

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I understand and respect your rejection of Christ, but how do you know for sure that His death for our sins is a lie?

There are a myriad of reasons I reject Christianity. Which would be too lengthy to post here. From my perspective, the bible disproves itself when it is read with fresh eyes, and not tainted with a vested interest in its authenticity. It has many errors that cover the spectrum, as well as many contradictions. It is also similar enough to religions that pre-date it by centuries and millennia, that it's obvious Judaism and Christianity are an eclectics potpourri, however unique it may appear in some facets.

To my knowledge, Christianity is the only system of faith which offers Unlimited Atonement for sin based on the substitutionary spiritual and physical death of God Himself as our servant and representative. No other religion teaches that. Every other religion is based on some form of merit for eternal security; gnosis, enlightenment, asceticism, works, dominionism.

Christians themselves have argued the truth of that statement for hundreds of years. Some right here at ATS. In my opinion, there is enough circumstantial evidence, considering Christianity's other similarities to its predecessors, that I'm convinced substitutionary atonement is not unique to Christianity, no matter how hard the early Christians tried to wipe out its competition.

Doesn't that in itself merit a closer inspection???

I did more than inspect it. I lived it for decades of my life. My family and friends are my witnesses, that I was as devout as they come. Perfect? No. But I studied that bible from cover to cover. I have preached, taught, and put my time in on the streets witnessing. Whoever believes or doesn't believe that on ATS doesn't change the fact that it's true.

Maybe its just me, but it seems like you are more bitter towards Christianity than you used to be, at least more recently.

Actually, I did deal with some anger and bitterness early on, but I don't feel any of that now. I'm just more out spoken about certain aspects of what I see as religious hubris. My post above was meant to convey that no matter how adamant I or Labtech might be, neither of us can really claim the one and only truth. No one can. In my personal opinion, if there is an entity most of us call "god", there isn't a religion or faith on earth that represents that god. As the meme says...
"I find it suspicious that everyone's personal god has the same beliefs they do."

a reply to: Klassified
I feel a kindred spirit with you. I was raised in the southern christian church by very devout parents. I have been a serious church leader and volunteer for many years although I did not pressure my children because I did not want them to be fed to fear in church like I had been. Many years of religious study and experience have led me to to be where you are today-and that's hard to be in the deep south and be told constantly I am going to hell. First thing asked by anyone when you move her is "where's your church?" I do not define myself by any religion and do not proselytize my deeply personal opinion but I just can't play the game any more.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: 0010110011101

1. I concur with your observation about dwindling church attendance.

2. It means that Pastors are failing to teach the Bible correctly beyond scratching the surface of the Gospel, and people are failing to seek deeper Biblical wisdom for themselves. So the problem just gets worse.

Some good Churches might close, the rest will probably integrate into some pan-religious theosophy. I've seen a cogregation destroy a good Pastor with slander, simply because he didn't follow un-biblical denominational traditions.

3. I think the more progressive changes in Christianity reflect the spiritual atrophy of the Western Church. More Churches accept women as Pastors, they are marrying homosexuals, and they are distorting/watering down the Gospel; ie Billy Graham's cardiac invitation gospel...you can't invite Christ into your heart. You simply believe that He died as payment for all sins. Billy Graham confuses spiritual fellowship with salvation.

4. When Christianity is eradicated in the West, the West will fall. But Christianity will likely rise elsewhere as it is in the Middle East in the face of the ISIS persecutions. Persecution unites those with like beliefs. It forces people to sort out their priorities.

OH NO NOT WOMAN IN CHURCH LEADERSHIP.

My favorite comment of yours though is that the west will fall with the decline of Christianity. Sorry priest but the evidence is clear that when a state or nation becomes non religious the crime rates go down , education improves, the economy improves etc.

a reply to: Joecanada11

Sorry priest but the evidence is clear that when a state or nation becomes non religious the crime rates go down , education improves, the economy improves etc.

Yeah, that must be why America and Europe have been doing so great lately.

1. Does anyone dispute the declining numbers and if so, why?

No
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2. What does it mean for the religion in these areas and will the lack of attendance eventually lead to the closing of churches?

Less money coming in to maintain their accustomed lifestyle, perhaps they could reorganize into nondenominational youth & community centers to keep their tax perks.
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3. Are Christianity's (relatively) progressive changes of late in recognition of it's dwindling popularity?

Of course a desperate attempt to maintain congregants but telling how their bedrock gawds law can be modified to fit the times.
What happened to written in stone?
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4. Will we ever reach a stage where Christianity is all but eradicated in the west?

One can only hope but lets include all denominations of superstitious silliness not just christians.

K~

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Joecanada11

Sorry priest but the evidence is clear that when a state or nation becomes non religious the crime rates go down , education improves, the economy improves etc.

Yeah, that must be why America and Europe have been doing so great lately.

The statistics speak for themselves. America is still a very religious country overall. However the state's with less people claiming to be religious far better than those that have the highest believer populations.

America was not a Christian country. That's a fact. The founding fathers left a theocratic monarchy and one of the principles the country was built on was the separation of church and state.

By the way believerpriest. Tell me. Why does your God not allow women in leadership roles. Why doesn't your holy book condemn slavery?

originally posted by: 0010110011101
It's safe to say that this thread is largely in relation to Christianity and focuses on Europe and North America.

Yes, as I would expect it to in Western developed countrys where people are treated fairly and have access to aid

originally posted by: 0010110011101
All research I can find concurs that numbers continue to fall and that existing congregations are getting older. So my questions are:
1. Does anyone dispute the declining numbers and if so, why?

No dispute, it is as I would expect, Christianity does not appeal to the wealthy and healthy, what irks me is the tv evangelists who appeal to the greedy people who think they deserve more because "their god" loves them

originally posted by: 0010110011101
2. What does it mean for the religion in these areas and will the lack of attendance eventually lead to the closing of churches?

Western civilisation was built on the Protestant movement, it became wealthy and healthy because of Christianity, now christianity is not needed anymore, its cyclical. When people are oppressed it will grow again in most circumstances

originally posted by: 0010110011101
3. Are Christianity's (relatively) progressive changes of late in recognition of it's dwindling popularity?

christianitys progressive changes, like what?

Christians dont accept sin in a church, outside people are free to live as they choose, we are not the moral police, or shouldnt be.
Maybe the church is becoming more accepting of the lifestyle choices outside of practicing christians, this is a good thing

originally posted by: 0010110011101
4. Will we ever reach a stage where Christianity is all but eradicated in the west?

Not that I could ever imagine,
Christs words Mark 2 17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

There will always be those who are sick and in need of forgiveness, Jesus offers that

originally posted by: Joecanada11


By the way believerpriest. Tell me. Why does your God not allow women in leadership roles. Why doesn't your holy book condemn slavery?

If I may
Galatians 3 28
There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Why does God? not allow. Its a religious thing placed on the believer in some church organisations like the catholics, why, I dont know

Why not condemn slavery? Its obvious, christianity is not about revolution, violence or strife, if slavery was condemned then there would have been a slave revolt ala Spartacus
Slave revolts had already caused hundreds of thousands of death, if Christ had have condemned slavery, well the obvious would have happened, dare I say common sense?
It was the christian movement that ended western slavery, not with violence, it used reason

Effectively christianity does condemn slavery, it is very clear, having said that isnt everyone working hard for a minimum wage a slave?

a reply to: Raggedyman

It was the christian movement that ended western slavery, not with violence, it used reason

Not so. Christians were so divided on the issue, they could not reach an agreement...

For example, in the lead-up to the Civil War, as pressure mounted to end the slave trade, American Christians found themselves deeply divided on the issue. Some argued for emancipation. Others argued for slavery. The arguments against slavery seem obvious to us now, but more surprising are the sincere Christian arguments FOR slavery. Here are a few, drawn from a longer list at Christianity Today.

Abraham, the “father of faith,” and all the patriarchs held slaves without God’s disapproval (Gen. 21:9–10).
The Ten Commandments mention slavery twice, showing God’s implicit acceptance of it (Ex. 20:10, 17).
Slavery was widespread throughout the Roman world, and yet Jesus never spoke against it. The apostle Paul specifically commanded slaves to obey their masters (Eph. 6:5–8).
Paul returned a runaway slave, Philemon, to his master (Philem. 12).
Just as women are called to play a subordinate role (Eph. 5:22; 1 Tim. 2:11–15), so slaves are stationed by God in their place.
Those who support abolition are, in James H. Thornwell’s words, “atheists, socialists, communists [and] red republicans.”
In the minds of people who made these arguments, it wasn’t just that slave holding was morally permissible. Many saw it as a pro-active Christian virtue. Slavery rescued people from cultures in which they practiced devil worship and witchcraft. It brought them to a place where they were taught the gospel and the trappings of civilization.

Link

a reply to: Klassified

uS history is not world history

Go read a book, seriously go read a book

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Klassified

uS history is not world history

Go read a book, seriously go read a book

I didn't say it was. I gave but one example. Your belittling tactics don't work on everyone. More members see thru them than buy into them. Have an awesome day.

a reply to: Klassified

No buts

You gave ONE
One example

I don't have to belittle you, you seem more than capable on your own

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
4. When Christianity is eradicated in the West, the West will fall. But Christianity will likely rise elsewhere as it is in the Middle East in the face of the ISIS persecutions. Persecution unites those with like beliefs. It forces people to sort out their priorities.

And why would the West "fall" when Christianity (finally!) disappears?

Christianity doesn't keep Western society together. It is not the moral or ethical "glue" of society -- and thank f*** for that.

Once people wake up and drop organised, man-made religion and practice spirituality (however they want so long as it doesn't hurt anyone or infringe on another's freedom) in the privacy of their own home, THEN we'll see some real progressive changes in human society.

Sadly, until that time, this poison called religion is still ever present and holding us back.

In the uk more people will be shopping than in church. Doesn't stop the bells ringing every Sunday morning calling worshippers to prayer. Those worshippers are either still in bed hungover from Saturday night or doing something else non religious. I don't know anyone who goes to church or remember the last time I went to a church.

originally posted by: Joecanada11

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Joecanada11

Sorry priest but the evidence is clear that when a state or nation becomes non religious the crime rates go down , education improves, the economy improves etc.

Yeah, that must be why America and Europe have been doing so great lately.

The statistics speak for themselves. America is still a very religious country overall. However the state's with less people claiming to be religious far better than those that have the highest believer populations.

America was not a Christian country. That's a fact. The founding fathers left a theocratic monarchy and one of the principles the country was built on was the separation of church and state.

By the way believerpriest. Tell me. Why does your God not allow women in leadership roles. Why doesn't your holy book condemn slavery?

I never said America was a Christian nation. America was established on freedom from theocracy so that Christians and others could have the freedom to believe what they want.

You're mistaking quantity of religious affiliates with quality of faith. Perhaps I should have said it differently. When the faith of Christians in America degenerates beyond repair, America will fall.

Christian faith has been degenerating for generations, and as a result, so has society, economy, and security. You have to look beyond the sugar coated surface of religion, because religion does not always mean faith. Sometimes it just means ritual, which does not always require faith.

Eve tempted Adam to sin, therefore man is given authority.

Slavery is a cultural phenomenon. There will always be classes in society, there will always be rulers and workers. In today's society, slavery still exists, only this time, you have the right to choose your master (company, manager, corporations). You can use your money to provide for yourself, but you still have to go back and work for more.

There is nothing evil about slavery its just another system. What is evil is the mistreatment of slaves.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest

originally posted by: Joecanada11

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Joecanada11

Sorry priest but the evidence is clear that when a state or nation becomes non religious the crime rates go down , education improves, the economy improves etc.

Yeah, that must be why America and Europe have been doing so great lately.

The statistics speak for themselves. America is still a very religious country overall. However the state's with less people claiming to be religious far better than those that have the highest believer populations.

America was not a Christian country. That's a fact. The founding fathers left a theocratic monarchy and one of the principles the country was built on was the separation of church and state.

By the way believerpriest. Tell me. Why does your God not allow women in leadership roles. Why doesn't your holy book condemn slavery?

I never said America was a Christian nation. America was established on freedom from theocracy so that Christians and others could have the freedom to believe what they want.

You're mistaking quantity of religious affiliates with quality of faith. Perhaps I should have said it differently. When the faith of Christians in America degenerates beyond repair, America will fall.

Christian faith has been degenerating for generations, and as a result, so has society, economy, and security. You have to look beyond the sugar coated surface of religion, because religion does not always mean faith. Sometimes it just means ritual, which does not always require faith.

Eve tempted Adam to sin, therefore man is given authority.

Slavery is a cultural phenomenon. There will always be classes in society, there will always be rulers and workers. In today's society, slavery still exists, only this time, you have the right to choose your master (company, manager, corporations). You can use your money to provide for yourself, but you still have to go back and work for more.

There is nothing evil about slavery its just another system. What is evil is the mistreatment of slaves.

I love it ! There is nothing evil about slavery but homosexuality is a mortal sin. That's definitely the kind of god we should all worship. Not!

Adam and eve is a fable and nothing more. I'm amazed that there are still some people who take those fables literally when we have so much evidence to the contrary.