Why should any educated adult believe any of the stone age religions are anything but make believe?

a reply to: spy66

You completely dismiss I was raised Christian, researched, and became knowledgeable of fact vs myth.

Why? Because Faith isn't knowledge.

What is it then? Believing a myth that has no factual support?

Believing a book that's a compilation of man chosen ancient mistranslated scripts with a smattering of questionable historical "facts"?

A historical novel is fiction with real historical facts mixed in. Should I claim faith from reading Gone With The Wind?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Annee

No one is telling you to believe in a lie.

The Christ story is a lie.

Its not about someone telling me to believe a lie. Its about knowing one is.

You keep telling yourself and others this almost on a daily basis. I bet pretty soon you might start believing it yourself.

Spiritual confirmation bias is the term that fits you here.

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Annee

No one is telling you to believe in a lie.

The Christ story is a lie.

Its not about someone telling me to believe a lie. Its about knowing one is.

You keep telling yourself and others this almost on a daily basis. I bet pretty soon you might start believing it yourself.

Really?

Please search me on how many times I've said the Christ story is a lie.

I think its 2. Both in this thread.

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

As Annee asked......: [You want/expect people to believe] a book that's a compilation of man chosen ancient mistranslated scripts with a smattering of questionable historical "facts". Right? Why? How is it any different than The Wizard of Oz, or The Jungle Books, or Hercules, or Star Wars?

I've said this so very many times -- yet this is the first time Annee and I have been on a thread simultaneously long enough for me to recognize how truly similar her perspective is to mine. And, simultaneously, how opposed my perspective is to yours.

In the end, you don't know. You may think and truly believe that you know.....but, well - I know people who think Morell mushrooms disappear at night, and that the liquid in a can of Kidney Beans is poisonous.


You don't really know, NCA (may I call you "NCA"?), none of us do.
Some of us have had inexplicable experiences, though - I have on more than one occasion had experiences that were eerily suggestive of the survival of the soul after death......

but that doesn't mean that "God" as an old flowing-beard-guy wearing a robe is real. There's really no need for it. ..... him.

It is what it is. There's no need for an anthropomorphized, illustrated "guy". It's silly to think that we are the only sentient creatures in the entire firmament, in all of the multiverses......

Just as humans develop in stages, so, too, does "religion". As individuals, we outgrow the myths of our childhood. We remember, for example, The Easter Bunny or Santa Claus, when we thought they were real and the joy we had with Easter baskets and gifts, then the initial disappointment at finding out they were not real, then continuing on to find the universal joy the myths meant to convey.

I think that the 1960s-70s began to open religion up to grow beyond the religious myths we were used to, but because, for some, the idea that the myths are not real is too disconcerting, many religions, not just Christianity, began to draw back into fundamentalism, preferring to stay at a stage of religion that includes myths and sets of rules (for individuals as well as "groups/tribes") to follow to keep in line and be assured of a better life (now and in the future) if followed to the letter.

The following read is for Christianity, as an example of this development, but it could very well describe any religion.

There were clear statements in the New Testament giving a cosmic meaning to Christ (Colossians 1, Ephesians 1, John 1, 1 John 1, and Hebrews 1:1-4), and the schools of Paul and John were initially overwhelmed by the hope contained in this message. In the early Christian era, a few Eastern Fathers (such as Origen of Alexandria, Gregory of Nyssa, and Maximus the Confessor) noticed that the Christ was clearly something older, larger, and different than Jesus himself. They mystically saw that Jesus is the union of human and divine in one person, and the Christ is the eternal union of matter and Spirit from the beginning of time. But the later centuries tended to lose this mystical element in favor of a more dualistic Christianity. We were all the losers. What we could not unite in Jesus, we could not unite in ourselves!

Christianity became another moralistic religion (which loved to be on top). It was overwhelmingly aligned with a very limited period of history (empire building through war) and a small piece of the planet (Europe), not the whole earth or any glorious destiny (Romans 8:18ff) for us all. Not surprisingly, many Christians ended up tragically fighting evolution--along with most early human rights struggles (such as women's suffrage, rights for those on the margins, racism, classism, homophobia, earth care, and slavery) – because we had no evolutionary notion of Christ who was forever "groaning in one great act of giving birth" (Romans 8:22). Until the reforms of the 1960's and the Second Vatican Council, Roman Catholic Christianity was overwhelmingly a tribal religion and hardly "catholic" at all.

We should have been at the forefront of all of these love and justice issues. The Christian religion was made-to-order – to grease the wheels of human consciousness toward love, nonviolence, justice, inclusivity, love of creation, and the universality of such a message. Mature religion serves as a conveyor belt for the evolution of human consciousness. Immature religion actually stalls people at very early stages of . . . tribal consciousness, while they are convinced they [have all the answers] or "saved." This is more a part of the problem than any kind of solution. Only the non-dual and mystical mind gets you all the way through.

source

We certainly can recognize religious myths in our lives, just as we remember our childhood myths, but we must go beyond taking the myths and stories literally and grow to include the universality of what those myths and stories are trying to tell us. We must learn from them more than believe in them.

a reply to: desert

My friend, one problem is that people haven’t learned the meaning of the myths.

Myths are universal motifs of meaning not untrue stories.


Most of religion, beyond the moral teachings, is allegorical myths certainly, but behind those myths are universal truths people haven’t penetrated nor understood.

Therefore growth hasn’t taken place.

The ignorant have overtaken religion with dogma and ethnocentric bigotry and never even learned or understood that there was meaning in the myths beyond authority.


Therefore, only the esoteric leaning students ever penetrate real meaning, the kernel of religion or its inner meaning, and religion is left to the exoteric believers to fight over authority, the husk of religion.

At best they get stuck in the self struggle and at worst some crazy idea of spreading to others something they themselves never really learned or developed in.

a reply to: Willtell

So, so true!

I think that many people have outgrown this stage of religion, they know this, they sense this, and have moved on or are ready to move on. If these universal truths had been explained the past few decades rather than the retreat to dogma and tribalism, the world would be a better place now. As it is, we'll have to wait a little longer.

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

It's not hard to believe that it's a stretch on the truth. I can believe that a preacher named Jesus or Yeshua existed and spent some time preaching. What I can't believe is that he walked on water, fed thousands of people with a few loaves of bread and a few fish, and was resurrected from the dead. Nor can I believe that the creator of the universe could be kept inside a box, or a talking donkey, or a woman being turned into a pillar of salt.

All it takes is for one to take a good look at the bible itself to question it's legitimacy.

originally posted by: MyHappyDogShiner
Not so much an answer as an observation of my own experience.

I like to believe in things after they begin to appear to be self evident, without leaps of faith.

I have screamed at the sky for answers in the past, and I got no answers.

I now assume there isn't anybody up there for lack of evidence.

Just might be looking in the wrong place.

Don't believe that sky fairy stuff people like to throw around.

Might as well talk to your next pasta dish if you're gonna yell at the clouds for answers.

a reply to: Annee

imho . . .

being "raised a 'Christian' doesn't, in and of itself, mean much to me.

Many times, the major contribution that makes to a child's life is to inoculate them AGAINST the God of the Bible.

That's particularly so if

1. The parents--particularly the father--contributes to significant degrees of ATTACHMENT DISORDER

and/or

2. their local church is more RELIGIOUS than spiritual.

3. The child fails, on the child's own, to seek God sufficiently to carve out an authentic relationship with God based on the Child's own hunger and dogged efforts toward such.


imho, God provide more than sufficient evidence for authentic, rational, supernatural faith

without 'forcing'

those willfully declining to jump on the bandwagon.


To me . . . the evidence for The Bible saying what Yehovah wanted it to say and meaning what He meant it to say . . . is incredibly overwhelming many times over.

However, the very human tendency of . . . none are so blind as those who WILL NOT see . . . tends to rule the day in many lives.

I think, in our era, it's rather difficult to be very fair-minded--even in earnest, purportedly 'objective' [whatever that is] research.

I think, increasingly, many will more or less need a "Damascus Road experience" to find true saving faith and an authentic walk with The very Real Yehovah, Yeshua, Holy Spirit.

A LOT of Muslims in Muslim countries are having just such experiences . . . whereupon they then need to secretly find a Bible to find out in more detail--just who this Jesus/Yeshua that appeared to them is.

I think a huge percentage of Americans are so awash in the oligarchy's propaganda of the last 100+ years that their openness to hearing much of anything from God is extremely limited to terminally anemic.

The heart that IN HUMILITY AND SINCERITY TRULY, EARNESTLY, TENACIOUSLY, PERSISTENTLY SEEKS GOD AND TO KNOW GOD . . . SHALL find HIM.

The heart wanting primarily 'evidence' or justification or whatever to 'do it's own thing' . . . will find . . . likely . . . what it's looking for.

a reply to: BO XIAN

What a load. When I was growing up we had to recite the lords prayer everyday In school. This was a public school. The indoctrination was everywhere.

I've been there. Spent years in Churches where they pretend to heal people and have people prophesy the most ridiculous things on earth. The bible is false. IF THE BIBLE WERE TRUE IT WOULD HAVE ABOLISHED SLAVERY AND STATED THE EQUALITY OF WOMEN WITH MEN. And many other things. But it doesn't do that. All it does it support oligarchy and patriarchy.

originally posted by: Joecanada11
a reply to: BO XIAN

What a load. When I was growing up we had to recite the lords prayer everyday In school. This was a public school. The indoctrination was everywhere.

I've been there. Spent years in Churches where they pretend to heal people and have people prophesy the most ridiculous things on earth. The bible is false. IF THE BIBLE WERE TRUE IT WOULD HAVE ABOLISHED SLAVERY AND STATED THE EQUALITY OF WOMEN WITH MEN. And many other things. But it doesn't do that. All it does it support oligarchy and patriarchy.

Lol!! Pretty funny, dude.

Equal pay for equal work?

Slavery? Human construct, like fair wages and glass ceilings.

Suffering and injustice, we bring it on ourselves, like most other things people blame God for.
Like their own disbelief.

Nothing to do with the message of redemption and salvation in the NT.

originally posted by: burgerbuddy

originally posted by: Joecanada11
a reply to: BO XIAN

What a load. When I was growing up we had to recite the lords prayer everyday In school. This was a public school. The indoctrination was everywhere.

I've been there. Spent years in Churches where they pretend to heal people and have people prophesy the most ridiculous things on earth. The bible is false. IF THE BIBLE WERE TRUE IT WOULD HAVE ABOLISHED SLAVERY AND STATED THE EQUALITY OF WOMEN WITH MEN. And many other things. But it doesn't do that. All it does it support oligarchy and patriarchy.

Lol!! Pretty funny, dude.

Equal pay for equal work?

Slavery? Human construct, like fair wages and glass ceilings.

Suffering and injustice, we bring it on ourselves, like most other things people blame God for.
Like their own disbelief.

Nothing to do with the message of redemption and salvation in the NT.

Which book do you reference?
If it isn't the unaltered original texts then your belief is false as it has been shaped and manipulated by the hand of man.
And of course you then must ask if the unaltered original texts made it past the first copying.

In truth your redemption and salvation is interpreted from a book of fairy tale and myth, that has as much relevance as a bad romance novel.

I don't question your faith, or indeed any persons faith. Faith is real I observe it everyday.

I do however question the foundation of lies upon which it rests.

This position applies to all religion not just yours incidentally. As I've stated before I don't play favorites. Your god is just as non-existent as all the ones who have fallen by the wayside previously.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Annee

No one is telling you to believe in a lie.

The Christ story is a lie.

Famous Historians:
Strabo, (63 - 24 AD), geography, Greek history
Livy, (c. 59 BC – c. 17 AD), Roman history
Marcus Velleius Paterculus, (c. 19 BC – c. 31 AD), Roman history
Ban Biao, (3–54), (Chinese Han Dynasty), started the Book of Han that was completed by his son and daughter
Quintus Curtius Rufus, (c. 60–70), Greek history
Ban Gu, (32–92), (Chinese Han Dynasty)
Flavius Josephus, (37–100), Jewish history
Pamphile of Epidaurus, (female historian active during the reign of Nero, r. 54–68), Greek history
Ban Zhao, (45–116), (Chinese Han Dynasty, China's first female historian)
Thallus, (early 2nd century AD), Roman history
Plutarch, (c. 46 – 120), would not have counted himself as an historian, but is a useful source because of his Parallel Lives of important Greeks and Romans
Gaius Cornelius Tacitus, (c. 56 – c. 120), early Roman Empire
Suetonius, (75–160), Roman emperors up to Flavian dynasty
Appian, (c. 95 – c. 165), Roman history
Arrian, (c. 92–175), Greek history
Lucius Ampelius, (3rd century AD?), Roman history
Dio Cassius, (c. 160 – after 229), Roman history
Herodian, (c. 170 – c. 240), Roman history
Chen Shou, (233–297), (Chinese Jin Dynasty), compiled the Records of the Three Kingdoms
Eusebius of Caesarea, (c. 275 – c. 339), Early Christian

SO YOU'RE CALLING EUSEBIUS A LIAR?

What gives you this idea?

Why should a child with down syndrome belive in the scientific theory?

originally posted by: Joecanada11

I can believe that a preacher named Jesus or Yeshua existed and spent some time preaching.

I personally believe there was a real man "Jesus, Yahway, whatever". The FACTS present a different story.

originally posted by: imjack

The Christ story is a lie.

Did I not say, my mission was to prove Jesus?

Oh, wait! Yes. That is exactly what I said.

And then you choose to throw crap at me?

a reply to: burgerbuddy

First of all Jesus himself never admonished slavery in the NT. In fact he said slaves should obey their masters. What is so funny about women deserving equal pay for doing the same thing men do?

Lastly believing in salvation to me is ludicrous. To think that God magically impregnated a woman to have a perfect child who would take the sins of all people away is a wild notion.

originally posted by: Joecanada11


Lastly believing in salvation to me is ludicrous. To think that God magically impregnated a woman to have a perfect child who would take the sins of all people away is a wild notion.

No #!

a reply to: Annee

Sorry if I unintentionally took a side.(I was being sarcastic)

Can you answer me why the Q document took 30 years to write and why Mark took 100? The man could basically fly. No one wrote about it for 100 years. It took 200 years from there for anyone substantial to agree it actually happened.