No Christian is Involved in Politics

a reply to: JarofRice

I don't doubt for a second that God provides for His servants, but even David had to cast the stone which God guided into Goliath's skull.

The fact is you have to think on your feet, even when the pressure is on. You'll have to ask God to show you the answer in prayer. The answers He gave me:

Luke 22:36“But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

and

Matt 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.

I take it as a matter of understanding the circumstances.

originally posted by: JarofRice
a reply to: Akragon

You aren't in your full senses dear person.

Jesus clearly showed us that love was the fulfillment of the law:

(Matthew 5:43-45) . . .You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous.

(Matthew 22:36-40) . . .Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

God's word brings all things into subjection to him. But we should do it with love. So I do not share these scriptures with you to show you the surpassing value of love by anything but love.

Well that is the first logical thing you've said to me...

excluding from the first sentence of course...

politics is literally the practice of lies...

I just disagree with your approach to the subject....

and i need a beer...

a reply to: Josephus

What about Moses, Joshua, and David? Are they not Spiritual Israel as well and National Israel?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

So we really can't be everywhere at the same time to stop evil from happening.

What if the second coming is Christ manifesting as millions of people who refuse to allow evil from happening on such a scale?

If religious gathering becomes illegal, then you gather in secret. We are commanded to keep our traditions.

Wisely written, and makes me wonder: what if a hypothetical nation finds those secret gatherings so threatening to their style of governing that it spends lives and resources beyond imagination to make sure every home, every phone, every computer reports to a machine that analyses keywords and alerts men at arms when a religious gathering is secretly held or prepared?
Because if we have nothing to hide, it's all right to be surveiled and scanned and "patted down"?

edit to add:

Because in my opinion also,

(...) God provides for His servants, but even David had to cast the stone which God guided into Goliath's skull.

originally posted by: JarofRice

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: JarofRice

I get what you're trying to say, but I disagree with the delivery and the main point. How do you expect the 2 billion plus Christians around the world to manage the rules and resources around them? Politics simply deal with the rules among humans, making it neither inherently good nor bad.

Even if every Christian strictly followed the Bible, how would they determine how to build infrastructure, harvest and distribute food and other goods, or enforce the rules and punishments in the Bible? Whatever answer you can give to that question is still a part of "politics", because anything dealing with community-wide rules and the enforcement of those rules would still be called "politics".

Any community with an acknowledged leader or leaders would also have "politics" by default, since politics would deal with the leaders' decisions and enforcement of those decisions.

Good and reasoning questions.

Scripture states:

(Romans 13:1, 2) 13 Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves.

So God has allowed humans to rule themselves. So all of what you ask for, while tiny in comparison to what God could provide, God did say we need to follow. So a Christian must subject themselves to the the governments they are in, as much as the governments do NOT interfere with true worship of Jehovah God.

For example, trying to force them to murder each other in war.

And also Jesus himself said:

(Matthew 22:21) . . .“Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.”

So what are Christians supposed to do when they're the majority of a community, region, or country? As you said, they're allowed to rule themselves. That system of ruling/governing is called "politics", and the infrastructure and groups that allow those Christians to rule over each other would still be called a "government".

So the problem here isn't whether real or "fake/apostate" Christians are involved in politics (aka governing themselves). The problem is that you don't think the Christians who are governing are governing correctly. That doesn't make them apostates; that just means they don't follow your beliefs or interpretations. Other denominations may disagree with your conclusions.

Of course, that's also the point in "secular" political/economic systems. Secular systems literally use the rules of humans over the rules of God/Scripture. Many of those rules may have a basis in common interpretations of Scriptures (like many marriage laws). But they can't force any specific Scripture's interpretations since that could encroach on the religious beliefs of other denominations or religions.

So to be blunt, I think your problems are with secular governments and the idea that self described Christians allow themselves to rule and be ruled by human laws instead of by Scripture. Basically, it seems like you think Christians should only govern through a theocracy. Is that correct?

a reply to: wisvol

I take the prophecies of the Day of the Lord/Second Coming pretty literally. Those prophecies indicate that the Second Coming will happen specifically because violence and evil will be so out of control. I don't think there is anything Christians can do to stop evil. All we can do is spiritually mature and teach those who desire to hear. That is the only way to buy time and quality of life for the world.

The world is falling apart now because Christians refuse to spiritually mature (that's my opinion). If the trend continues, then the 7 year countdown to the Second Coming will begin. Spiritual maturity brings blessing. Blessings trickle down and saturate the world around us, thereby bringing stability and restraining evil.

Hey , OP . I got a challenge for you.Give me the chapter and verse where the Bible states a Christian should not be political or involved with politics....

Or is it just I should take your word on it and move on as you have replied to others...

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Basically, it seems like you think Christians should only govern through a theocracy. Is that correct?

I can't speak for the poster you addressed this to, but I'd like to add:

A democratically chosen theocracy, Christian or other, seems legitimate to me.
God would be president, without pay, ten laws are enough and legislators can cease mooching off farmers and having their opinions enforced. Judges would rule over traffic disputes and the like using theocratic principles instead of what ever they use now.

So basically I would support the principles upon which is set the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria?
Oy vey, I don't know if it's wise to answer this when PRISM listens, but speaking for my own country in the Levant, I definitely wouldn't mind if weed prohibition was replaced with Genesis 1:29 as legal standards.

Along with Roman (they still say they're from Rome or is the "novus ordo seclorum" just for show?) law in general actually.

Surely a well oiled theocracy is above "terrorism" because Christ/God/Allah/& c. is merciful and loving.
Terror or fear is the night of love's bright morning. Some adversary could make it look otherwise though.
And many would be fooled.
For how long?

a reply to: JarofRice

Akragon most certainly is not a fool, as for the OP, yes it takes a special kind of mind to really go behind the words and grasp the true meaning of what Jesus said.
In my opinion, they weren't christians!

a reply to: Akragon

" originally posted by: wisvol a reply to: Akragon No, earliest leads to source, which didn't consider anything competition and eliminated misconceptions instead. "

source?

explain?

Gladly

Perhaps you could tell me what "true" Christianity is before we continue... ye got a few thousand choices... the earliest of which leads us back to a time where the "church" eliminated the competition pick your flavor

The source of Christianity, aka the "earliest of which" you refer to, is Christ.

a reply to: JarofRice

By your very logic, you create an impossible dilemma.

Anyone in any position of authority must be of Satan in this world. After all, they are of the world, are they not? They are in a position of control, are they not?

So when you know someone you know is a Christian who ends up in a position of some authority, how does that square? I'm married to one.

I think you set an impossible standard. I think you need to examine again Disraeli's post on legalism because your standard sound a tad bit legalistic to me. You are setting a letter, not a spirit. What is most important to God is that He is uppermost in our hearts and that our actions in this world reflect that.

originally posted by: Gothmog
Hey , OP . I got a challenge for you.Give me the chapter and verse where the Bible states a Christian should not be political or involved with politics....

Or is it just I should take your word on it and move on as you have replied to others...

Many times, Christians spoke before the leaders of various towns and councils. These days, we call it lobbying.

Of course, back then, they didn't always do it willingly but were sometimes hauled in and accused of bad things and killed if they didn't manage to make their case ...

Still, it was political in a sense.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Gothmog
Hey , OP . I got a challenge for you.Give me the chapter and verse where the Bible states a Christian should not be political or involved with politics....

Or is it just I should take your word on it and move on as you have replied to others...

Many times, Christians spoke before the leaders of various towns and councils. These days, we call it lobbying.

Of course, back then, they didn't always do it willingly but were sometimes hauled in and accused of bad things and killed if they didn't manage to make their case ...

Still, it was political in a sense.

Remember ...give unto Caesar what is Caesar;....? Pay taxes to fund the state as good citizens.
I could go on , but my post was actually a challenge to the OP. A challenge I know could not be met.

a reply to: Gothmog

Yes, God (and Christ) were concerned with affairs of the spirit, not the world. When we immerse ourselves in the world to the utter exclusion of the spiritual, worry more about the world than we do the life of the spirit, then we are OF the world. And, yes, Satan does control the world and the worldly.

But we also have to live in the world. Until we are called home, it is our home and our test. Do we seek to ignore it or seek to make it a better place by our own actions? Do we fall away from the life of the spirit and lose site of it in the face of the temptations of the world (easy to do as the world is here and now and lasts a lifetime), or do we hold fast and keep the faith of something we cannot see and directly experience but only have a promise of?

It is our test. Which way will we go, but it's not nearly so simple as to look at this or that action and point a finger and cry "No True Scotsman!"

a reply to: ketsuko
Half of the New Testament i about politics of the time. If you read it correctly...Jesus actually told his followers to follow the rules of the leader of the country they were in.As that was the laws of man.
Peace to all

originally posted by: JarofRice
There is an upcoming election in the United States. If you are not in her, even still you are interested, because she affects the whole earth. I am a US citizen but do not reside in the United States.

All over the world "Christians" involve themselves in politics, even though Jesus did NOT.

And the Christian faith is that people of all sorts out of all tribes and nations and tongues will be saved.

And we know, as Christians that we cannot kill our brother and love God.

So anyone involved in politics and wars of the world are NOT Christian.

That is right. Do you make up the majority of people that worry about politics and are in Christendom? Then you are a part of Satan's system of things.

Because Jesus said that Satan was the ruler of the world. And Jesus never took sides in political disputes, but said that his kingdom was "not from this source" from the world.


You are not Christian and hate how Christians can take political sides and murder each other, and force their laws on people? Then you have valid arguments. Jesus did not nor do his followers. Satan has counterfeit "Christians" that are doing all these things and leading you away from the truth.

"What is truth?" some may ask. If you have that attitude it is possible you will understand, because you really DON'T care, and don't want to.

If you are a reasoning person, and realize all of the above is rational. Then you also know that God is a God of love. And that his people must have love among each other everywhere in the world.

That is logical. So really, people who will respond to God's message are those who are reasonable, not intolerant, not extremist. They realize that love is the important factor in all things.

Not all people realize this. Do you? Then you are special. And if you don't, can you mold your thinking ability to be able to understand it? You can. You can break free from the fetters you are in, but it takes a thinking and reasonable mind. That is all. That is all that is needed.

Know this: ALL government in all countries is under Satan's control. NO person voting for office has God's approval. No religion that involves itself in politics is approved by God.

Easy to understand. Logical. Not ALL religion therefore is bad. But ALL religion expect ONE is from Satan. And if you are not of that one, then you are indeed part of Satan's system of religion. And if you don't believe in it, then perhaps that is why. But you are still mislead by Satan.

Simple, clear, logical. And not only that, when you think it through, correct. And loving. Thinking minds with eyes to see and ears to hear will be able to discern it.

Not unthinking illogical ones only bent on arguing and hate. Not those.

So.... Basically you are saying, if you don't act like jesus did, then you're not a real christian?

Or at least if you do not approve of one's actions then you deem them as less than christian or even a satanist? Am i close?

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: ketsuko
Half of the New Testament i about politics of the time. If you read it correctly...Jesus actually told his followers to follow the rules of the leader of the country they were in.As that was the laws of man.
Peace to all

Yep, and I can't quite go with the OP all the way because it makes the world an unbelievably dark place with little hope.

If Satan truly had as much pure control of the world as all that, I would not be sitting here posting this so freely on my computer, nor would I have made so many of my other religious opinions known. I would instead either be on the run, dead, or hiding my truths close to my vest, living in constant fear that I would be discovered for them.

Now, there are prophecies that tell us that time is coming, but they are not here yet. The reason why is because the Holy Spirit is currently also at work within the world and restrains what Satan can do. Now, the Holy Spirit is not a direct entity, but works hard every day through those of us in the world, but not of it.

jesus said my followers will be no part of the world as i am no part of the world...i agree with the op however almost all christian religions these days promote political involvment so i guess you could say christianity is nearly dead. only religion i know of that sticks to the no politics rule is Jehovahs Witnesses.

a reply to: JarofRice

But ALL religion expect ONE is from Satan. And if you are not of that one, then you are indeed part of Satan's system of religion. And if you don't believe in it, then perhaps that is why. But you are still mislead by Satan.

Megalomania and delusion.

originally posted by: CaDreamer
jesus said my followers will be no part of the world as i am no part of the world...i agree with the op however almost all christian religions these days promote political involvment so i guess you could say christianity is nearly dead. only religion i know of that sticks to the no politics rule is Jehovahs Witnesses.

Jesus was part of the world in the sense that he began a spiritual/revolution revolution however. He also did not demand people leave their everyday occupations in order to follow him. He merely demanded we put Him first in our hearts. How many times did He eat with tax collectors and other government officials without asking them to put aside their jobs?

He only demanded the young man leave all his possessions because He wanted the young man to understand that God is to be first, and he knew the young man loved his wealth and possessions MORE than he loved God or Christ. In other words, that young man was worldly, OF the world.