Elah or Allah -- God or Sacred Oak; Strong's

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Wow since you used all caps on that "nothing" you must be right, and still I want to say u just shout & twist cause u no know what tsevaim reference was.

Lord of hosts where one is hosting the saint spirit and not guests of flesh, lord of armies as in commander of said armies, the commanded hosts, and hey what's with the terebinth and Absalom, because guy here didn't see the link with Ham's curse earlier in other flood description. Point is in non military settings, the commander makes rules.

Assuming we know a bar mitsva party is celebration of ability to be this kind of host, and thus a mitsva (commandment), let's try imagining the possible link between mitsvot (not mitt's vote) (plural) and tsevaot.

The vav in mitsvot is vocalised as a soft beth for a reason, add the aleph and take out the mem, when you know what each means it's easier. Alpha is still used in english as meaning the same and mem... Maybe skim off the bahir a little bit or get this: "im" means "them" with he, "with" with eyein and "masc. pl." with yod, adding aleph it becomes & c., and what else comes in lucky thirteens?
Prime number and mother letter as the AMiSh will no doubt explain satisfactorily.

ArchAngels and planets, sure. I like to approach it with seventh as the letter zion meaning seven because their names alphabetically areGetting off topic, ceasing. Homophony isn't homography anyhow even though the world was created by erm was it explosion or voice lets argue and miss the point lol conspirzcy in religion, hardly any kind of piracy going here quite sadly

kudos for choosing the words fixed stars, i smile when we do this, you should hang out this summer and make bottle rockets and debate linguistics, fruits are already budding and my mother makes rad pie worth the trip to this circus. Pretty big domestic cats from Norse oaky forest or so says the friend who brought the first I saw.

publihing of semi coherent typing means wisvol needs shuteye, thanking internets for gilgameshy Noah & o&o

originally posted by: wisvol
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Wow since you used all caps on that "nothing" you must be right, and still I want to say u just shout & twist cause u no know what tsevaim reference was.

JHVH Tsebaot made the rules, OK, those are the rules he conquers by. Armies have rules obviously, and I guess the plural king character in question who dominates his divine generals and admirals ARE those rules, MADE those rules. But that's not what the name and title MEANS.

Lord of hosts where one is hosting the saint spirit and not guests of flesh, lord of armies as in commander of said armies, the commanded hosts, and hey what's with the terebinth and Absalom, because guy here didn't see the link with Ham's curse earlier in other flood description. Point is in non military settings, the commander makes rules.

Not really making them, but ordering them. You know the whole tongue like a sword thing. The power of being the Word of God. Something like when Preacher speaks in red lettering. You know the Word of God doesn't WRITE the Word of God, but the scribes are damn busy that's another thing. You thinking (has happened once or twice I suppose) doesn't means you invented thinking.

Assuming we know a bar mitsva party is celebration of ability to be this kind of host, and thus a mitsva (commandment), let's try imagining the possible link between mitsvot (not mitt's vote) (plural) and tsevaot.

What the hell does this have to do with the LORD of Hosts? So, the kids are twelve, they get a pointy stick and they read their first mitsva in the Torah. So what? This has nothing to do with the Canaanite war-god JHVH Tsebaot.

The vav in mitsvot is vocalised as a soft beth for a reason, add the aleph and take out the mem, when you know what each means it's easier. Alpha is still used in english as meaning the same and mem... Maybe skim off the bahir a little bit or get this: "im" means "them" with he, "with" with eyein and "masc. pl." with yod, adding aleph it becomes & c., and what else comes in lucky thirteens?
Prime number and mother letter as the AMiSh will no doubt explain satisfactorily.

I suggest you take a Hebrew reading course. In your first class you will obviously learn more than you ever knew about the damned language. Your ways with Hebrew is like a fish explaining how to properly play the accordion. Blob blob.

ArchAngels and planets, sure. I like to approach it with seventh as the letter zion meaning seven because their names alphabetically areGetting off topic, ceasing. Homophony isn't homography anyhow even though the world was created by erm was it explosion or voice lets argue and miss the point lol conspirzcy in religion, hardly any kind of piracy going here quite sadly

They are seven since there are seven visible moving objects in the sky visible to the naked eye. Whenever you read about Michael, he is the Sun. Satan is Jupiter. Gabriel is the Moon and so on. Wherever they show up, they always show the astronomical whereabouts for their given vessels. I think Michael's change of mantle every month is sort of gay, and Gabriel needs a walk in closet for every month, but they are the stars, the arch angels and I'm just a barbarian. I do have a drum kit in my living room though, and I play them quite well too. Who knows?

kudos for choosing the words fixed stars, i smile when we do this, you should hang out this summer and make bottle rockets and debate linguistics, fruits are already budding and my mother makes rad pie worth the trip to this circus. Pretty big domestic cats from Norse oaky forest or so says the friend who brought the first I saw.

Fixed stars (ex. Vega and Sirius) as compared to wandering stars (planets, the moon and the sun)

publihing of semi coherent typing means wisvol needs shuteye, thanking internets for gilgameshy Noah & o&o

Sleep well.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

But that's not what the name and title MEANS.

To you maybe, but words do have intrinsic meaning.

doesn't means you invented thinking.

Obviously, and still to make rules one invents rules.

I suggest you take a Hebrew reading course. In your first class you will obviously learn more than you ever knew about the damned language. Your ways with Hebrew is like a fish explaining how to properly play the accordion. Blob blob.

I chose the potentially confusing and direct aggregation of character approach because I read a post of yours saying you had read the book of formation, but blob blob it is then. Semantic drift of English in the last century or so is a good sample of the comical state of modern hebrew when compared to biblical, notwithstanding the disregard for the alphabetical order, meaning, point and logic.

Satan is Jupiter.

Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Ramiel and Sariel don't include the adversary who would be here with us.

I'm just a barbarian

You did seem to speak Greek there for a second but if you say so.

I do have a drum kit in my living room though, and I play them quite well too. Who knows?

Our rhythm Dan here is actually quite the drummer too, but then again he also uses the formation approach so it'd be a purely musical session or an underwater accordion jam, both of which sound fun.
There's that Norse surfing character who said something about runology's ideogrammatic origin but since we're not the telephone kind her presence would be left to chance. I do keep notes of it but it was pressured flux and engaging because I was seeking similarity and found more than I'd hoped.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Changed my mind about not addressing this part:

So, the kids are twelve, they get a pointy stick and they read their first mitsva in the Torah. So what? This has nothing to do with the Canaanite war-god JHVH Tsebaot.

Thirteen, they're thirteen memblob memblob. Unless they're girls but bar is masculine.

The novelty in this ritual is the public reading and singing of the week's parsha (part) of the scroll, mitsva is the command to do so.
Has little to do with Canaanite pantheon, definitely.

Although to be fair, Canaan had notions of theology derived from Noah's, so there are common roots to those who'd seek them. I lost interest in Canaanite theology when I saw the Baal narrative mixed in, and was referring to the Hebrew use of the phrase adonai tsevaot, the tetragrammaton would add complexity here and its meaning isn't as simple as its brevity suggests, although I'm sure translations abound I prefer the option of translating it ideogrammatically because opinions in all matters of theology are so heavily influenced by the translator's preexisting leanings.

Cheerio

originally posted by: wisvol
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Changed my mind about not addressing this part:

So, the kids are twelve, they get a pointy stick and they read their first mitsva in the Torah. So what? This has nothing to do with the Canaanite war-god JHVH Tsebaot.

Thirteen, they're thirteen memblob memblob. Unless they're girls but bar is masculine.

The novelty in this ritual is the public reading and singing of the week's parsha (part) of the scroll, mitsva is the command to do so.
Has little to do with Canaanite pantheon, definitely.

The wee Jewish girls also have their bat mitsvahs (note bar with boys and bat with girls).

Javeh Tsebaot in Hebrew is יהוה צבאות (like in 1 Samuel 17:45), that is the Tetragrammaton paired with the plural form of Heb. צבא (Strong's H-6635) «Tsaba» which has a wide variety of semantic meanings ranging from armies and battles to slavery, military hosts (generals), war and warfare, even to astrological planets and arch angels in similar literature.

In the NASB text sing. Tseba and pl. Tsebaot are translated in the following ways:

armies (23), army (79), army* (1), battle (1), combat (1), conflict (1), forced to labor (1), hardship (1), host (30), hosts (292), hosts is the army (1), most (1), service (10), struggle (1), trained (1), war (35), warfare (1).

Your «rule-maker» semantics just ain't present, mister.

I suspect you mix up Javeh Tsebaoth with the priest-king Melchizedek, which is Heb. מלך «Melek» (King, Messenger, Angel) + Heb. צדוק «Tsadok» (Hebrew name of Planet Jupiter, means lit. Judge or Just or righteous) -- which gives a translation of Melchizedek as «King of Justice».

Although to be fair, Canaan had notions of theology derived from Noah's, so there are common roots to those who'd seek them. I lost interest in Canaanite theology when I saw the Baal narrative mixed in, and was referring to the Hebrew use of the phrase adonai tsevaot, the tetragrammaton would add complexity here and its meaning isn't as simple as its brevity suggests, although I'm sure translations abound I prefer the option of translating it ideogrammatically because opinions in all matters of theology are so heavily influenced by the translator's preexisting leanings.

Cheerio

With Canaanite I was referring to how Javeh Tsebaot seems to be a Jewish mirror image of the Canaanite Baal character. BTW. Heb. בעל «Baal» means Lord, Jesus is called the Lord throughout NT, Heb. יהוה «Javeh» is typically replaced with Heb. אדני «Adonai» which means Lord. KJV constantly replace the Tetragrammaton with LORD in all caps.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

You give eighteen meanings to tseva(ot), I have given one translation that although loosely belonging to this lexical field seems to stand to all possible uses made throughout the book.
Certainly this denomination is fitting in conflictual situations as a one-up, so to speak, yet the denomination itself isn't tied in military setting, as evidenced by some of your eighteen declinations ("forced to labour" is the lolly one).

Your «rule-maker» semantics just ain't present, mister. I suspect you mix up Javeh Tsebaoth with Melchizedek

I translate Adonai Tsevaot as rule-maker at first glance, as I have done earlier in this thread with the tsevaot part being the "commanded to us" part, and Don still means this in modern Italian, Hebrew and regional dialects. What means both army and forced to labour? Those commanded to do & c.

Jove Tsevaot is another bowl of wax entirely, which I have not translated here and definitely avoid mixing up with Melchizedek or anything else really, but thanks for the opportunity to verify.

With Canaanite I was referring to how Javeh Tsebaot seems to be a Jewish mirror image of the Canaanite Baal character. BTW. Heb. בעל «Baal» means Lord, Jesus is called the Lord throughout NT, Heb. יהוה «Javeh» is typically replaced with Heb. אדני «Adonai» which means Lord. KJV constantly replace the Tetragrammaton with LORD in all caps.

Using close languages and alphabets, Canaanites and Hebrews. To solve this confusion briefly, I was referring to the Canaanite understanding of Baal.

Not everything means lord even if translated as such, adonai being the closest, baal being more like "master (of)", not always personified, as in master of a trade or art (see modern meaning of baal shem tov for instance) and yhvh differing deeper, understood as sovereignty through semantic drift only, and literally being a matrix of tenses past future and present in a way chronos or saturn depict better than lord, french and latin bibles translate it as eternal which is definitely more nuanced than lord also, but still wildly off. Worth noting is the temporal declinations in hebrew are derived from this word and not the other way around.
I insist on the fact that I have given an opinion as to the way yhvh may be understood but have not translated it and nothing I say about it is meant to be a translation.

Canaanite theology took the modern approach before anyone else and called yhvh "baal" which in my opinion is a clear pre-indication of the canaanite civilisation's less than formidable embranchments, in conjunction with the idolatry and naming their self after Noah's cursed grandson.

KJV constantly replace the Tetragrammaton with LORD in all caps.

And such is King James' prerogative, "lord" being a tetragrammaton of its own, isn't this drol(l)?

Studying the given names of the lord is a lot of fun, some may produce unexpected results and aren't to be addressed in vain.

a reply to: wisvol

Both my cats are named after Baal. They are really nice cats, and like all cats they consider themselves superior to humans, and could easily kill any own of us, and if you'd die while locked in with one of the critters, they'd eat you. My cats worship water and are quite noble and kind, and one of them always take dumps aligned North-South (I had to move his box once since it was hard for him to squeeze himself into the right position) so I need to keep his corner of the box in pristine shape and with plenty space around so he won't have to dig on the floor or on the wall. In their own complementary ways they'z a proper god showing a sort of devotion and forgiveness you seldom find among humans. So I named them Baal and Theother-Baal. When I told them I was talking of them on the internets, they just said «We iz vicious not so often, food soon? Much cowbell!»

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

See that's just fun. The cat I referred to earlier is named Dieu. From her first intrigue is a greyer male version of her we named Morgoth.

They do resemble the pre-renovation sphinx in many respects, but I couldn't keep a sandbox, it's just asking for more feline hubris.

Both thrive on a vegetarian diet and shun the flesh of the small fish, rodents and birds they've killed so far, habits are a powerful set. When I take extended trips they refuse to acknowledge my presence upon return for days. I think their conspicuous indifference has weighed much in denomination.

That and the soothing vibrations they make that takes the edge off the face of the deep.
They haven't made worlds yet as far as I can tell and they seem quite mortal.
Great judges of character too, anyone hissed at by a good cat isn't trustworthy as Epictetos remarks.

a reply to: wisvol

I keep the box since one of them is quite old and doesn't go out much if he please. And the other one is a couple months short of a year old, so I keep the box as long as the cats use it. The younger one has been caught in the act of trespissing twice now, so I keep washing wherever I believe the little bastard'd consider fit for doing his things. Costs a fortune with all the sand, and it does give off a pretty disgusting odeur I try to mask with some air freshener, but I see those things as part of the deal when living with cats

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Back on topic, as per the title of your thread:

Would you be so kind as to share a response to this question:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thanks in advance

a reply to: wisvol

So Abram moved his tent and came and settled by the oaks (Heb. sing. אלון «Elon» pl. אלוני «Eloni» or Strong's H-436) of Mamre, which are at Hebron, and there he built an altar to the LORD. [ESV] Genesis 13:18

The Hebrew name «Mamre» translates loosely through a Yabath cipher Heb. ררמי «What a Mountain!» or Strong's H-2042 «Harar» + H-4310 «Me», alt. rearranged Heb. ררים «Rarim» which means Mountains. Strong's 2042 Harar minus the article prefix and added the suffix to render plural -im makes Rarim. «Amazing Mountains of Oak?» Oak was what they used for scaff and pullies, cranes and levers, are we talking about the Amazing Pyramids? Gizeh or Hebron?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Happy days

Another instance is "hayim" masc plural as "life" and "hayot" fem pl as those things Zeek describes.

Oak is named differently by other tongues, the most revealing I know of is chêne (Fr) which is also channel, and chain phonetically and not poenymically. Dude said if you know all languages you don't need high towers to reach fsm or something.

Yabath cipher now eh, and transliterated as cipher instead of sefer? you insisted against some poster doing this earlier in another thread but it's your keyboard.

Now for the accordion symphony: grammatical engineering starts with Gen.1.1 BR1SYT' BR1, where S is given later as MYM/ SMYM as water/sky in KJV if memory serves, and Y as YHY(-1WR) same translit as "let there be light" methinks, T' you saw as anti1 earlier and gave the 1T example, which today is kept as "you" fem sing. among other uses.
Not using same ideograms for observed extraction purposes.
The point here is comparison of constructed agglomerates "words" through addition of one ideogram at a time is so far the most effective way -assuming unedited text- to reverse engineer proper meaning, and avoid semantic drift.
Avoid ready-made translation of agglomerates, for even when their purpose is to serve your understanding they are incomplete at best, and most good authors of these sefarim -or shall I write cepharim to you?- were quickly caught and persuaded before printing a lot.

To observing readers: yes I'm rambling about imaginary things, carry on.

originally posted by: wisvol
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Yabath cipher now eh, and transliterated as cipher instead of sefer? you insisted against some poster doing this earlier in another thread but it's your keyboard.

Sefer is book in Hebrew, while cipher is a code in English. While Code comes from the same word as Codex (book in Latin) and sefer (book in Hebrew) is related to the english word cipher, cipher simply means a code. And Yabath is one of the 22 basic Atbash substitution ciphers used in Hebrew scriptures.

Devil's in the details, I know, but let's try and stay at least slightly on topic. Heb. Elah + Allah

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Etymology is important: cipher is a borrowed word, which most etymologist trace as far back as Arabic [sifr] as described by www.etymonline.com...

However, Arabic etymologists and mathematicians worth their salt gladly explain the origin of the Arabic word [sifr].

Since this is an etymology thread on [Elah & Allah], here is some food for thought:

עמק האלה or "valley of terebinth" is in Arabic وادي السنط, and not etymologically close to [Allah].
Nonetheless, individual meanings of Semitic ideograms being the end game of this branch of etymology, the combination of aleph and lamed does evoke the sacred nature of the tree, with the suffix found in the tetragrammaton and other words indicating (according to wikipedia for what that's worth)

Significance of He (...)

A suffix after place names indicating movement towards the given noun. (For example, Yerushalayim, Jerusalem; Yerushalaymah, towards Jerusalem.)

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: wisvol

Not in Arabic perhaps, but in Hebrew Elah and Allah are closely related etymologically as well as semantically. In Hebrew they are written identically as well, only with slightly different niqquds.

Heb. אֵלָה = Elah
Heb. אַלָּה = Allah

In Paleao Hebrew the two words would be identical and used interchangeably.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Very true

Niqquds aren't Hebrew, even though modern hebrew will use it as training wheels.
The concept is from the middle ages, made by people who either missed the point of that alphabet entirely or wished to mislead others.

Aleph Lamed He may be pronounced "Allah" in modern hebrew to anyone who wishes to do so
Yet it is not used in scripture as meaning "Allah" in the Arabic sense, unless you have access to a scroll or unedited reproduction thereof that suggests otherwise, and in that case please do provide a reference because that would need to go live on Al Jazeera.

In Paleao Hebrew the two words would be identical and used interchangeably.

In proper (theological) hebrew, there are not interchangeable at all, because "they" are one word: aleph, lamed, he.

originally posted by: wisvol
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Very true

Niqquds aren't Hebrew, even though modern hebrew will use it as training wheels.
The concept is from the middle ages, made by people who either missed the point of that alphabet entirely or wished to mislead others.

Niqquds are far older than the Middle Ages. Generally one can say that the square Aramaic script with its niqquds was introduced during and after the Babylonian exile. It was developed over a few hundre years until it ended up just about where we are now some decades before the common era. Lots of things happened to Hebrew language during and after the Babylonian captivity.

Aleph Lamed He may be pronounced "Allah" in modern hebrew to anyone who wishes to do so
Yet it is not used in scripture as meaning "Allah" in the Arabic sense, unless you have access to a scroll or unedited reproduction thereof that suggests otherwise, and in that case please do provide a reference because that would need to go live on Al Jazeera.

I am not talking about Allah in the Arabic sense, but Allah is the ancient Hebrew word for oak, probably dialectical variant of Elah or the other way around.

In Paleao Hebrew the two words would be identical and used interchangeably.

In proper (theological) hebrew, there are not interchangeable at all, because "they" are one word: aleph, lamed, he.

And what is proper theological Hebrew? Never heard of such nonsense. Obviously the ancients worshipped God by ancient oaks and/or therebints.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Niqquds are far older than the Middle Ages

This is not so: find niqquds in early hebrew and you win this debate for ever.
pro tip: transliteration of ancient texts may include niqquds, which the author would dismiss with a raised eyebrow.

I am not talking about Allah in the Arabic sense, but Allah is the ancient Hebrew word for oak, probably dialectical variant of Elah or the other way around.

Did you not write the title of the thread? Because if you did, you talked about Allah in the Arabic sense.

And what is proper theological Hebrew? Never heard of such nonsense. Obviously the ancients worshipped God by ancient oaks and/or therebints.

Proper theological hebrew is the language recorded by the hebrew scribes at the time where conversations with god are alleged to have taken place. Calling it nonsense won't help your understanding of aleph lamed he. In five hundred years when the Queen Brawndo version of the bible goes mainstream you'd know how the king James interpretations of English words such as "gay" or "closet" or "kind" may be closer to making sense than the new ones.

The ancients worshipped god in all sorts of places, the sacred nature of these trees being significant in a specific way, as has been partly discussed here.
The deeper one is that the tree, preceding birds and fish and cattle and man in creation, is the combination of the spheres and the complement of the alphabet, hence the sequence of aleph lamed he.
Visualise a wheel with twenty and two spikes, another with ten, in perpetual rotation, and you'll see why "hayot" is to "hayim" what "sephirot" is to "sepharim"

cheerio

a reply to: wisvol

There are plenty examples of niqqud systems in Hebrew and Aramaic dating back to the Babylonian exile, and the Babylonians inherited it's vocals from the Assyrian language. Even in the time of Jesus, or soon after, Jewish and Roman commentaries describe how Jewish heretics (ex. the Christians) were circulating religious texts containing niqqud diacritics and empty spaces and even the Tetragrammaton (JHVH, often represented with Lord or LORD in English translations of OT). And seeing how the Greek NT doesn't contain the Tetragrammaton, it is safe to assume that every instance of Lord with capital L in NT is supposed to read JHVH. The current niqqud system is based on a system that was developed in the middle of the first millennium AD, however, several systems have existed, and especially with the arrival of the printing press, a multitude of systems were developed, before they went back to the system used in the BHS and BHL and still today. Before the current system was developed there were different systems. Take the Shin for example, the typical Shin we see today is actually a shin with three dots above it. Same with a few others, that have survived and ended up as generic consonants, with further niqqud diacritics around them.

a reply to: wisvol

You're referring to Paleo Hebrew script which is distinctively different from modern Hebrew (or actually, modern Hebrew uses the square Aramaic script) script and its origin, Yemenite Hebrew, the latter dating back to Babylonian and Persian influenced Aramaic and introduced around the return of Hosea et al from the Babylonian captivity. These systems are typically called Assyrian script.

en.wikipedia.org... Yemenite Hebrew may have been derived from, or influenced by, the Hebrew of the Geonic era Babylonian Jews: the oldest Yemenite manuscripts use the Babylonian system of vowel symbols, which is believed to antedate the Tiberian vowel system. [...] It should be noted in this connection that the Babylonian vowel signs remained in use in Yemen long after the Babylonian Biblical tradition had been abandoned, almost until our own time.

Babylon, around 500 BC is the origin of the niqquds, certainly not Middle Ages. You forget that over time and even in its own time there were many different systems of notation used, with distinct dialects and orthography just as we see with English from Olde English into Modern English, languages change over time, and OT records several of these different dialects, orthographies, scripts and even whole different languages, the OT contains, Persian, Babylonian and Chaldean (like in many place names, and stuff like Daniel's writing on the wall), and typically Hebrew in many stages and different dialects and spelling etc., and Aramaic in different dialects and scripts. Things are never easy, mate.