Elah or Allah -- God or Sacred Oak; Strong's

Daniel and Ezra are both written in Aramaic, which was the language that would be spoken by Jews between the Babylonian exile and Diaspora (ex. in the time of Jesus, Jesus and his disciples spoke Aramaic). In Daniel and Ezra, God is called Strong's H-426 Aram. אלה and traditionally (as given in BHS/BHL Mesora) it is typically vocalised as «Elah» (BHL: אֱלָהּ in Dan. 2:28).

Throughout the bible El and Al are used interchangeably for the same word, Heb. אל, either as a separate noun or part of a word ex. as a suffix or prefix— which given we'd use the Mater Lectionis vocalisation should sound AL in its simplest form. But that's the basic layer, that is further covered by ages of politics, wars and other affairs so that the typical «Arabs say Al while the Jews say El» which isn't really absolute, but it sort of rhymes with reality.

At the time Joshua was written the Hebrews would use the same word Daniel would later use for God, as for the word for Oak, but when אלה is written as a proper name means God it is typically using the אל=El formula, while when it is used for Oak the אל=Al is in motion. Strong's H-427 «Allah» is also written אלה, but with slightly different Mesorah which is understandable since we are talking of words which are written identically, but read differently.

List of nouns written אלה in Strong's Concordance:
==> Hebrew «Alah» = Oath/Curse (noun f.) = אָלָה = Strong's H-423
==> Hebrew «Elah» = Oak (noun f.) = אֵלָה = Strong's H-424
==> Hebrew «Elah» = Elah (proper name noun m.) = אֵלָה = Strong's H-425
==> Aramaic «Elah» = God (noun m.) = אֱלָהּ = Strong's H-426
==> Hebrew «Allah» = Oak (noun m.) = אַלָּה = Strong's H-427

The Aramaic «Elah» corresponds to older Hebrew «Eloah» (typ. Heb. אֱל֣וֹהַּ in Deut. 32:15 in the BHL, that is the Leningrad codex) and Arabic «Allah» is a continuance of Heb. Eloah -> Aram. Elah -> Arab. Allah, and shows the similarities between Arabic and Hebrew, which isn't really strange, since Hebrew and Aramaic, like Arabic, Tigrinja and other related languages belong to the family of Semitic languages. Allah in Hebrew however, refers to a sacred oak or terebinth, showing how certain oaks or terebinths were sacred to the ancient Semitic tribes, how they swore oaths and made curses and blessings under sacred oaks or terebinths.

Different traditions and languages, but the same God. El is Eloha is Elah is Allah.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Just a note .....I was listening to a speaker this morning talking about Daniel .He was in chapter 7 but he made note that Daniel used both Hebrew Aramaic .Not sure where the divisions are but I though he said the first 4 chapters were Hebrew and if I am not mistaken that the last chapter [s] went back to Hebrew .

a reply to: the2ofusr1

I think you are right, as far as I know there are a few ancient manuscripts some in Aramaic and some in a sort of Hebrew. We simply don't have that many of these ancient manuscripts, but as far as I know, Daniel was one of the first books to be written using the Persian inspired Aramaic square script (...אבגד) we know from Modern Hebrew, some of them sporting different sorts of diacritics systems of wovels (niqquds, inspired by Persian), the «birds-droppings» you see in red and blue in the pic below:



The above says Gen. 1:9 And God said, "Let the waters be collected...." as it is written in the Leningrad Codex

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Jesus, in the Gospels, also invoked a form of the word "El":

"Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
- Matthew 27:46

"Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
- Mark 15:34



I was first introduced to these semantics by Dr. H.M. Baagil's book, "Christian-Muslim Dialogue”. Here is the excerpt from Chapter 1:

The name Allah seems to be strange to non- Muslims but this name has been used by all Prophets since Adam until Muhammed (pbut). It is a contraction of the two Arabic words Al -Ilah, i.e. The God. By dropping-the letter “I” you will find the word Allah. According to its position in an Arabic sentence it can have the form “Allaha” that is close to the Hebrew name of the Creator, i.e. Eloha. The Jews are using the plural form of respect when they say “Elohim”. (in the eastern languages there are two types of plural: one is of numbers and the other is of respect).The word “Allaha” sounds closer to the Aramaic word for God used by Jesus, namely “Allaha” (see Encyclopedia Britannica 1980 under Allah and Elohim). So while the name Allah is strange to non-Muslims, it is not strange to all Prophets from Adam to Muhammed, (pbut) as they propagated in principle the same Islam, i.e. total submission to ALLAH. The word Allah denotes the personal name of the Supreme Being. It is not subject to plurality or gender, so there is no such thing as Allahs, or male or female Allah, as there are Gods and Goddess in the English language. It is also confusing to use the words God and Creator as many English-speaking Christians still consider Jesus to be God and Creator.

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Jesus, in the Gospels, also invoked a form of the word "El":

"Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
- Matthew 27:46

"Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
- Mark 15:34

The translation given in the synoptical gospels is obviously marginalia that has sneaked into the text at some point in time, and the translation is wrong in my opinion. «Eli» here isn't whether God or Elijah, but the name of his son, Elimas «Magus» Bar-Jesus, who apparently leaves Calvary when Jesus is about to faint, supposedly to summon the Roman centurion and convince him that Jesus is innocent.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I thought it was purely a reference to the Psalms:

"My God, my God (אֵלִ֣י) ["Eli" Concordance Word 410 [e]] why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?"
- Pslam 22:1

a reply to: Sahabi

Yeah, that would be the typical explanation. Understanding Heb. אלי «Eli» as a construct of El (אל) + suffix -i (י). Yod as a suffix to a noun in Hebrew means «my» as in «My El» or «My God». The Aramaic name «Elimah» Aram. אלימא (vocalised אְלִימָא in Thayer's) means Powerful and reflects how Elohim were the Powers or Forces, and was the name of a certain «Son of Jesus». I believe Jesus cried for him when he paraphrased David's psalm.

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon of the NT on Elymas:

Ἐλύμας, ὁ (Buttmann, 20 (18)), Elymas, an appellative name which Luke interprets as μάγος — derived either, as is commonly supposed, from the Arabic (elymon), i. e. wise; or, according to the more probable opinion of Delitzsch (Zeitschrift f. d. Luth. Theol. 1877, p. 7), from the Aramaic אְלִימָא powerful: Acts 13:8. (BB. DD., under the word.)

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Jesus, in the Gospels, also invoked a form of the word "El":

"Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
- Matthew 27:46

"Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
- Mark 15:34

The translation given in the synoptical gospels is obviously marginalia that has sneaked into the text at some point in time, and the translation is wrong in my opinion. «Eli» here isn't whether God or Elijah, but the name of his son, Elimas «Magus» Bar-Jesus, who apparently leaves Calvary when Jesus is about to faint, supposedly to summon the Roman centurion and convince him that Jesus is innocent.

That's an interesting take on that verse. Did you come up with that yourself, or is it something you picked up in study?

a reply to: Klassified

I have come to that conclusion as a result of my own studies. In Acts 13 Saulus has an encounter with a supposed sorcerer (Luke, the supposed author of Acts, interprets «Elymas» to mean «Magus» in Greek, same word as used for the «Wise Men» that appears in Matt. 2) named Elymas Bar-Jesus. Elymas' friend is a Roman nobleman named Sergius Paulus. Saulus calls Elymas the «Son of the Devil» («Bar-Jesus» means lit. «Son of Jesus»), blinds him and supposedly heals Elymas in return for Sergius' fancy surname. Only after that incident, is Saulus referred to as Paulus or Paul in the Acts' narrative. Saulus extorted the «Son of Jesus» and the Roman official Sergius Paulus in Acts 13 and acquired the Roman noble surname Paulus that would allow him to speak in the forums and force anyone non-Roman to follow him wherever he wanted. After that incident, Saulus would be known by the name Paul/Paulus, and in daily life he would could now expect to be treated as Roman nobility, even though he was a Jewish Pharicee from Tarsus.

The way I see it, the REAL St. Paul was named Sergius and saved the eyesight of the Son of Jesus by giving the Jewish «inquisitor» Saul from Tarsus his noble surname Paulus in return for the healing of Elymas' vision.

See the full story here: biblehub.com...

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

A sharp minded interest in a field I also study. Marvellous, and let us please try a tiny grain of salt :

Throughout the bible El and Al are used interchangeably for the same word, Heb. אל, either as a separate noun or part of a word ex. as a suffix or prefix

Aleph Lamed and Ayin Lamed isn't the same word. One is el, one is al. Interchangeable like ball and bull.
Check out the flying company el-al, they might volunteer the story of their name.

These letters, much as contemporary ideograms each have intrinsic meaning, and in the case of two-lettered words, the understanding gained by comparing components is well worth the try.

Alphabet formation study is the foundation of fruitful linguistic research in this case. Sure, it's *possible* to reach conclusions from contemporary quasi homophony, but it seems like you're serious about your topic.

As for Islam and Judaism worshipping the same deity: yes. Three times yes, and thank heavens for that, because eventually enough believers will know this and won't be as easily divided and conquered.

See how the Qur'An spells "Gabriel" in Arabic, it show this quite clearly, and also what kind of "el" is Gever-el?.
Almost like Fons Vitae's Ibn Gevirol, it that makes sense to you.

Confusing transliteration, keyboard-related.

a reply to: wisvol

originally posted by: wisvol
Aleph Lamed and Ayin Lamed isn't the same word. One is el, one is al. Interchangeable like ball and bull.
Check out the flying company el-al, they might volunteer the story of their name.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Ayin isn't used for any of the words mentioned in this thread in any of the relevant languages? Where are you getting it from?
Also, "Ayin" isn't used as an approximation of "A" in any of the languages either. It is voiced as a sort of glottal stop that doesn't really have a good transliteration in english. Aleph is used in hebrew (and aramaic and arabic) for both "A-" words and "E-" words. For example, "Aaron" was spelt with an aleph as well, not an ayin.

a reply to: babloyi

Ayin isn't used for any of the words mentioned in this thread in any of the relevant languages? Where are you getting it from?

Yes, it is. From "Al".

Also, "Ayin" isn't used as an approximation of "A" in any of the languages either.

See remark above.

Aleph is used in hebrew (and aramaic and arabic) for both "A-" words and "E-" words. For example, "Aaron" was spelt with an aleph as well, not an ayin.

Your understanding of pronunciation is flawed. A and E are vowels, Aleph and Ayin are not.

a reply to: wisvol

originally posted by: wisvol
Yes, it is. From "Al".

The word "על" (that is, ayin-lamed, simplistically transliterated as "al"), meaning "on" in hebrew, wasn't talked about by anyone in this thread. The OP of the thread, in fact, in several places, referred to "Al=אל" (when referring to the word for God and the word for Oak, for example).

originally posted by: wisvol
Your understanding of pronunciation is flawed. A and E are vowels, Aleph and Ayin are not.

Aleph is certainly a vowel. Which vowel it is (could be E or A) depends on understanding of how the word is spoken (or written diacritical marks). So when I said "Aleph is used in hebrew (and aramaic and arabic) for both "A-" words and "E-" words", how exactly was my understanding of pronunciation flawed? There are words in hebrew (and aramaic and arabic) that are pronounced with "A" as well as "E", that both use Aleph.
Ayin is not a vowel, agreed.

a reply to: babloyi

"על" (that is, ayin-lamed, simplistically transliterated as "al"

The OP of the thread, in fact, in several places, referred to "Al=אל"

A reference I chose to comment upon. Your use of "simplistically" is why this is my last response to you.

"On" is a partial translation of Ayin Lamed not pertaining to its use in this context.

Aleph is certainly a vowel.

Because you insist on this, I know that you are the kind of person I spent enough time on.

a reply to: wisvol

originally posted by: wisvol
A reference I chose to comment upon. Your use of "simplistically" is why this is my last response to you.

Perhaps then you could've provided some more context on how your comment was relevant to this thread? I mean, if someone was talking about how they "can do something", would you interject with "A garbage can is generally made out of metal"?
And ayin-lamed is not pronounced in a way that could be properly covered by what one might understand from the english transliteration "Al". So yes, that is a simplistic transliteration of it, which becomes something to point out when it is brought up in reference to something completely unrelated. Unless there is some relation that you failed to mention?
No need to get all pissy about it.

Why are you spreading this disinformation? alLah is the male consort of alLat. The al of alLah means "the", it's totally unrelated to "El" (God).

a reply to: babloyi

Hebrew is a sort of Abjad language, meaning it's made up from syllablic consonants. NONE of the 22 Hebrew letters are vocals, like ע ayin which is a either «voiced pharyngeal fricative» [ʕ] — or a guttural «voiced epiglottal frikative» [ʢ], that's why they have the Mesorah, the system of niqquds or diacritics to voice the syllablic consonants. Vocals are assumed. However, in Hebrew and related languages they have what they call the Mater Lectionis (from Latin "mothers of reading"), that are semi-vocals, these are א alef, ה heh, ו vav and י yod.

Below is the explanation from Wikipedia about ע ayin and its phonetic representation, it's a bit technical, but here we go:

Ayin has traditionally been described as a voiced pharyngeal fricative ([ʕ]). However, this may be imprecise. Although a pharyngeal fricative has occasionally been observed for ayin in Arabic and so may occur in Hebrew as well, the sound is more commonly epiglottal ([ʢ]),[1] and may also be a pharyngealized glottal stop ([ʔˤ]).

In some historical Sephardi and Ashkenazi pronunciations, ʿayin represented a velar nasal ([ŋ]) sound, as in English singing.[citation needed] Remnants can be found in the Yiddish pronunciations of some words such as /ˈjaŋkəv/ and /ˈmansə/ from Hebrew יַעֲקֹב (yaʿăqōḇ, "Jacob") and מַעֲשֶׂה (maʿăse, "story"), but in other cases, the nasal has disappeared and been replaced by /j/, such as /ˈmajsə/ and /ˈmajrəv/ from Hebrew מַעֲשֶׂה and מַעֲרָב (maʿărāḇ, "west"). In Israeli Hebrew (except for Mizrahi pronunciations), it represents a glottal stop in certain cases but is usually silent (it behaves the same as aleph). However, changes in adjoining vowels often testify to the former presence of a pharyngeal or epiglottal articulation. As well, it may be used as a shibboleth to identify the social background of a speaker, as Mizrahim and Arabs almost always use the more traditional glottal stop.

Ayin is also one of the three letters that can take a furtive patach / patach ganuv.

In Hebrew loanwords in Greek and Latin, ayin is sometimes reflected as /g/, since the biblical phonemes /ʕ/ (or "ʿ") and /ʁ/ (represented by "g") were both represented in Hebrew writing by the letter ʿayin (see Ġain). Gomorrah is from the original /ʁamora/ (modern ʿAmora) and Gaza from the original /ʁazza/ (ʿAza) (although Gaza is Ghaza in Arabic).

In Yiddish, the ʿÁyin is used to write the vowel e when it is not part of the diphthong ey.

originally posted by: SarMegahhikkitha
Why are you spreading this disinformation? alLah is the male consort of alLat. The al of alLah means "the", it's totally unrelated to "El" (God).

LOL keep your voice down, the little ones are sleeping.

You certainly need an update to your Hebrew skills. The article THE in Hebrew is HA which is written as a prefixed ה (heh), which in relation to Allah (Oak) gives the reading Heb. האלה «Ha-allah» that is /hā·’al·lāh/ as it appears in Joshua 24:26 ==> biblehub.com...

Eilat Heb. אילת is an Israeli town between the borders of Egypt and Jordan, and the name has the same etymology as Heb. Allah (Oak or the odd trans. «Pistacia tree» in the text below):

en.wikipedia.org... The origin of the name Eilat is not definitively known, but likely comes from the Hebrew root A–Y–L (Hebrew: א. י. ל.‎), which is also the root for the word Elah (Hebrew: אלה‎), meaning Pistacia tree. Like numerous other localities, Eilat is mentioned in the Bible both in singular (possibly construct state) and plural form (Eilot).

Possibly there was a sacred tree in Eilat once where the Jews, Arabs and Egyptians had agreed to the borders. Such oaths were common, and planting an oak or a terebinth at such places were common. Like the famous «Cutting of the Elm» in the days of Charlemagne.

Keep your disinformation to yourself.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

always remember the "ancient manuscripts" we have are not the original autographs. Our "ancient manuscripts" are actually copies not one original in the bunch. While Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek are all languages the receivers of God's words recorded in we still have no way to verify the validity of any text without the original.

I believe that the God of the Original has preserved all his words just as he had in the originals and it is found in one Bible that was in the trade language of today.

JMO

I love it Jesus was quoting scripture right to the end and three days later rose from the dead.