What constitutes (religious)belief?

a reply to: windword

I was not indoctrinated into much of anything. I was taught to think for myself and not blindly follow.

Indoctrination is a process that happens AFTER a belief has developed. Period. Just think about it logically, even if only for a brief moment. Indoctrination into a belief, cannot happen unless that belief existed beforehand. What came first, the belief or indoctrination into the belief? It's very simple.

A2D

a reply to: Akragon

I don't know what you mean and I am not sure of these creeds

Maybe the Nicene creed, I expect you dislike that immensely, me not so much

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

Look. You were not born at a time when people were afraid of thunder. Your fear was out of place for your surroundings, and I'm sure that your parents talked you out from under the bed.

If you were born in a time when people were afraid of thunder and everybody around you thought that it was representative of dragons or giant humanoids fighting over who would rule over humanity, your fears would be normal.

Indoctrination is a process that happens AFTER a belief has developed.

BS! They indoctrinate the very young for a reason!

You haven't addressed my question regarding religious beliefs, like "Jesus died for your sins". Superstition, indoctrination or a reasonable logical religious belief, like hiding under the bed is the safest place to be?

a reply to: windword

I'm not talking NOW...im talking the origins of belief....belief spreads after it has developed through indoctrination...but it develops from superstition...

Trace the belief back all the way...to the very first person who believed...and you'll find that that person was not indoctrinated...

A2D

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

Trace the belief back all the way...to the very first person who believed

The first person who believed what? That a giant humanoid, that was angry with humanity, lived in a volcano?

Early religions were based on animism, the idea that spiritual entities controlled natural phenomena.

a reply to: windword

Like I said...it doesnt matter WHAT....the very first person of ANY belief...was not indoctrinated...it's as simple as that.

A2D

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

Like I said...it doesnt matter WHAT....the very first person of ANY belief...was not indoctrinated...it's as simple as that.

I never said that indoctrination was the fist step in the creation of a superstitious (religious) belief. But, you can't have religion without indoctrination.

Everyone has original beliefs, but not all beliefs are connected to "religion". The fact that some beliefs may have originated from a single person, and then passed on and accepted by others, doesn't make it a pure or rational belief.

A belief concocted from the fear of death, that imagines there are hob goblins that need appeasement, isn't a rational belief. It's a reactive superstition, and a trick of the mind. When that superstition is shared and accepted as truth, that's indoctrination.

Religious beliefs are like a game of telephone. The details keeps changing, but it all originated from the same thing. Fear and superstition supported by group acceptance.

Today's religions are the product of agreed upon superstitions that have been passed down generation to generation, and have evolved as social constructs change.

You still haven't answered my question. Is the religious belief that Jesus died for your sins superstition, indoctrination or based on natural observation of an awesome universe?

a reply to: windword

To answer your question...I'll pose another question....Does it have to be one or the other? Why can't it be multiples.

Original religion was the creation of superstition. It was passed generationally through indoctrination. You did say however, in your initial response, that indoctrination is what first and foremost constitutes religious belief...but that's not the case. Religious belief without indoctrination is entirely possible, meaning that indoctrination is not the base for religious belief....

A2D

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

You did say however, in your initial response, that indoctrination is what first and foremost constitutes religious belief

In order for someone to reject the idea of a god, to be called an atheist, first one must be introduced to concept of a god. That's indoctrination. No one thinks to themselves, There is a god, but I don't believe it.

Religious belief without indoctrination is entirely possible, meaning that indoctrination is not the base for religious belief....

Perhaps if you're talking of a personal epiphany, or a drug induced experience translating into some realization of a supernatural being? But, that's spiritualism, not religion. Religion is always learned group think. That's indoctrination.

To answer your question...I'll pose another question....Does it have to be one or the other? Why can't it be multiples.

Give it your best shot.

a reply to: windword

In order for christianity to exist...it would have to be invented before you could indoctrinate anyone into it... therefore the belief exists before the indoctrination can occur....you can't indoctrinate someone into something that doesn't exist in the first place...

A2D

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

Christianity didn't arise in a vacuum. It's the result of an ancient "telephone game" of distorted indoctrination. It started 1000s of years ago from the superstitious belief that one could actually lay blame for disease, natural disasters, personal guilt, bad luck, on a goat painted with blood and then driven away from the flock and the tribe, to a cruel fate, as a sacrifice to some some "goat hating", mankind controlling volcano or sun deity.

All Religion is centers around superstition and indoctrination. Christianity, the idea that a "Jesus died for your sins", is a religious belief that is the result of a gradual evolution of superstition and indoctrination, that was deliberately spread by the end of a sword.

a reply to: windword

indeed it did... as did all others, it was experience of the void and the space between... upon return how could form recitify emptiness in form by form? unless pointing in some manner? did they resolve form inside their form before pointing is the better question to ask. but then again? as soon as there is an utterance? where is the void? but right back to the spaces between. so debate causes a gap instead of a unity... word can form a group but even alone on the highest peak or deepest depths? one carries matter with them. if not? touch the form of oneself if separate? there is ego. if not then touch earth as a witness to form. and thats all the confirmation one needs for the ground upon we all walk. if not so grounded? then its earth, matter, form of concept divided from itself and again back to the void or space that divides all others. although connected in various ways of charge. unity in diversity or diversity in union? choice to answer or not... is the flow of energy through all things. even yet undivided or discovered.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

What does any of that have to do with the idea that Jesus died for your sins?

Here, read this:

Origin Of the Universe: On Nasadiya Sukta of Rig Veda
(also known as the Hymn of Creation, is the 129th hymn of the 10th Mandala of the Rigveda )

Then even nothingness was not, nor existence,
There was no air then, nor the heavens beyond it.
What covered it? Where was it? In whose keeping?
Was there then cosmic water, in depths unfathomed?

Then there was neither death nor immortality
nor was there then the torch of night and day.
The One breathed windlessly and self-sustaining.
There was that One then, and there was no other.

At first there was only darkness wrapped in darkness.
All this was only unillumined water.
That One which came to be, enclosed in nothing,
arose at last, born of the power of heat.

In the beginning desire descended on it -
that was the primal seed, born of the mind.
The sages who have searched their hearts with wisdom
know that which is kin to that which is not.

And they have stretched their cord across the void,
and know what was above, and what below.
Seminal powers made fertile mighty forces.
Below was strength, and over it was impulse.

But, after all, who knows, and who can say
Whence it all came, and how creation happened?
the gods themselves are later than creation,
so who knows truly whence it has arisen?

a reply to: windword

are you casting stones into a pond? i appreciate the intention he wanted his death to have... and by that wish i have the utmost respect. but what has it turned into since? if he chose heaven? then on death follow him, if he chose life? then walk til you find him... he is likely still bleeding beaten and abused, no matter the slander or onion that asks for tears as you cut into its life. he was an instrument of truth pointing at things voice fails to reason, and without reason? there is no ration for which to feed on. so indeed respect the oinion for its sacrifice as well using the same respect for life. thhis is walking with god... no need to talk with god if god sees all and knows all. why would such a being destroy anything deemed perfect on such ones eyes unless the concept or conception of it false?

so who is it that shakes the ground or blows through the trees or farts solar wind? if not for light and heat? where would be be? appreciating such things make us one with the all or everything. there is respect that you desire truth and have walked a path... but sitting in the void until there is light, sound, taste, touch, smell or other mental affluence of attachment? then where would one be? awake and conscious? or asleep in the collective unconscious? or still in the void of knowing nothing at all except what one carries back with them? into birth, death, over and over as a bodhisatva?

nirvana is the gift of the deathless as a buddha or awakened one, paranirvana? the expression of this in form yet empty to all others without realization... then sharing it empty handed, empty mouthed, empty eared empty in form and where ever the mind is there you are also... where you dwell? determines ones location. dwell for christ and you become a martyr when his wish was no one else would have too.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

so who is it that shakes the ground or blows through the trees or farts solar wind?

So, your (religious) belief is that there is a deity, a "who", whose breath is the wind blowing through the trees, his footsteps causing earthquakes and his anus is the Sun farting solar winds.

Thanks for making my point.

a reply to: windword

it was a metaphor for things naturally occuring call it what you want as all concepts. when my tagline clearly states the truth with every post. its nice when someone assumes belief in concept as "mine" this crap was here when I got here i carried it for awhile then wiped it away. as something eternal and lasting dependent of something else? belief requires faith. humanity exists... surprizingly I have faith in humanity without bias as possible even though thats up to an individual to grow and foster... because of the force that animates all life? is the same...

wanna talk religious conspiracy? how about christanity taking over the u.s. government when there is separation of church and state and have replaced ethics with morals? those knowing what i am talking about? their understanding of christ and appreciation of his message are laughing the same as those of others that see and know exactly what I am talking about. what isnt funny is all the hate used that is supposed to represent love.

imagine in ones heart of heart their diety of truth instead of it as a belief... and now imagine it saying and doing and thinking all the ignorance found in it. whos mind is moving and whos mouth is echoing it? if it is inside? then purge it there first then bother the people outside with it. otherwise one rides all 4 horses right into their own apocalaspe ALONE.

everything fine and dandy with label after label, i demystify a word by giving its correct meaning... awake and those awake are those that come back and all hell breaks loose why? attachment holds the key that puts your hand in to the lock closing all doors and windows like a theif hold up in someone elses house refusing to negotiate... and saying evil etc dwells somewhere else? but within as a concept locking everyone in bondage outside? while you still holding the key like, somehow youll be able to keep what is not yours. tree of life and tree of knowledge? shed one before the one of duality called death follows and all doors open because there is no house. truth needs no representation of concept.

a reply to: windword

Look...this is the last comment I have concerning this because it's clear that you don't get it.

Think of christianity as herpes...and sexual intercourse as indoctrination.... Sure, you can spread christianity through indoctrination just like you can spread herpes through sexual intercourse....but sexual intercourse doesn't actually have anything to do with the VIRUS itself. The mechanism by which something spreads is not the same as the object itself. The knife I use to spread my butter is not the same as the butter. Just like the method I use to spread my belief is not the same as the belief itself....I can't make this any more clear than I already have.

A2D

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

Think of christianity as herpes...and sexual intercourse as indoctrination....

No. I have used Christianity as an example of how superstitions evolve into religions (religious beliefs).

The religious belief that "Jesus died for your sins" wasn't one person's epiphany that made so much sense it changed history. Unlike Eisenstein's' Theory of Relativity" which was not a "religious belief", but a scientific hypothesis, you can't see the difference.

So, to sum things up;
Can a religious belief constitute the rejection of indoctrination and rhetoric? I think that there's a "sliding scale", from total acceptance to total rejection. But the catch is, in reality there's a Venn Diagram at play, where all the participates have first been indoctrinated.

a reply to: windword

Yes...superstitions evolve into religious beliefs...I've said this....but indoctrination has nothing to do with the evolution of a religion...it only occurs after the religion has first evolved....

A2D

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

but indoctrination has nothing to do with the evolution of a religion

And, this is where I strongly disagree. I guess we'll just have to strongly agree to strongly disagree.