DoJ Wants Apple To Decrypt 12 More iPhones

originally posted by: DexterRiley

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Xtrozero

No. They can't. How can anyone subpoena something that doesn't exist?

But they can subpoena all the information they need to build it themselves.

-dex

IF. . . . that information exists.

Doesn't this support Apple's assertion that it won't be limited to just one terrorist's phone? Whose phone is next? Another terrorist? Who is a terrorist these days? How are we defining it in 2016 as compared to 2001? How will we define it next year or ten years from now? The police state never recedes.

Well, the old saying about weaving a tangled web certainly seems to applely here because I don't trust Apple any more than I trust the government.

originally posted by: DexterRiley
I don't believe the government has the legal authority to compel Apple to create the program to weaken the user interface so that they can decrypt the phone.

However, I believe they do have the legal authority to compel Apple to provide them enough proprietary information whereby the FBI can use its own engineers to create such a program.

-dex

As with anything, knowledge of capability can be enough to warrant the investment of effort.

By publicly succeeding, even outsiders are emboldened.

And that's just the uncontrollable attacks, the controlled solution could also leak.

hire somebody, and reverse engineer it

chinese are good at this

originally posted by: BrianFlanders
Well, the old saying about weaving a tangled web certainly seems to applely here because I don't trust Apple any more than I trust the government.

I think it is very easy for most of us to believe that there is some collusion going on between the Gov and Apple.

I am more afraid of what kind of spawn is going to hatch from this demonic union.

If the government is allowed to force a company the size of Apple into creating a product at their bidding; where does it stop?

More than likely at our front door. They are trying to convince us that it is perfectly right and necessary to take from the few to benefit the many. Even if the few or the many don't want it.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn

originally posted by: BrianFlanders
Well, the old saying about weaving a tangled web certainly seems to applely here because I don't trust Apple any more than I trust the government.

I think it is very easy for most of us to believe that there is some collusion going on between the Gov and Apple.

I am more afraid of what kind of spawn is going to hatch from this demonic union.

If the government is allowed to force a company the size of Apple into creating a product at their bidding; where does it stop?

More than likely at our front door. They are trying to convince us that it is perfectly right and necessary to take from the few to benefit the many. Even if the few or the many don't want it.

Well, I'll just say that it's been pretty clear that the government runs everything in this country for a long time. I don't think you get to be an Apple or a Google or a Microsoft in the US without colluding with the government in the first place.

So my guess is that's where the iPhone came from. Some guy in the CIA or NSA or somewhere called Apple one fine day and said "We need a device that will be the Swiss Army Knife of spy on our citizens. Can you do it?".

Now, of course, Apple needs to make it look all innocent and make it seem as though they're not doing anything willingly.

Personally, I think they're just building a plausible story to bring the telescreen out into the open. 1984 must have seemed so implausible when the technology didn't really exist. How would something follow you around everywhere, anyway?

I mean. Don't get me wrong. Terrorism obviously has to be a difficult problem to solve. What bothers me is all of this precedent and apparatus will linger long after terrorism fades from the headlines.

I'd be watching out for those fitness watches too. That's about as close as you're gonna get to an implant without it actually being an implant.

Within the OP the following is stated:
Cornell University School of Law, holds "that the 5th and 14th Amendments require all governmental intrusions into fundamental rights and liberties be fair and reasonable and in furtherance of a legitimate governmental interest."

In fairness, I’d like to make one small change to the statement quoted above:
netbound, holds "that the 5th and 14th Amendments should require all governmental and Corporate intrusions into fundamental rights and liberties be fair and reasonable and in furtherance of a legitimate governmental or Coporate interest."

Just as the government should have to justify any intrusion into our fundamental rights to privacy and free speech, so should corporate entities be held to the same measure.

Now, apply that to the massive project currently underway by all the big tech companies to establish what they call the “Internet of Things”, or IoT. Soon most home appliances, and many other consumer goods, will come standard with a built-in network interface. As if they don’t already have more than enough personal info on us, companies will now be able to monitor our activities even when we’re home alone. They’ll use our data to analyze our lifestyles for marketing purposes, they’ll establish elaborate electronic profiles on all of us, they’ll sell our “private” data to the highest bidders, blah, blah, blah...

And here we are now, standing behind Apple Corp and defending the privacy and free speech rights of known terrorists, affiliated with ISIL, who have attacked us and slaughtered our fellow citizens. What’s wrong with this picture?

I personally trust Apple, Google, and the others even less than I do Big Brother.

Prior to iOS 8, Apple had the capability to do data extracts on it’s phones without technically unlocking them. So, when the government made requests for data through appropriate channels (warrants), then Apple would accomodate them.

Starting with iOS 8, however, Apple started securing the phone’s data using an encryption scheme that was tied to the passcode. So, a legitimate passcode must be used in order to read the encrypted data. That being the case, the government is asking Apple to disable/bypass the auto-erase feature so the data isn’t destroyed after 10 failed login attempts - that way the FBI can run a routine to brute-force determine the passcode and gain access to the phone’s data.

Apple can preach it all day long, but I still don’t believe them when they claim that the above can’t be accomplished without jeopardizing the security on all iPhones. I think that’s a load of crap, and they’re simply using this event as a marketing ploy.

I have to wonder, what does an iPhone owner do if they forget their passcode? Buy a new iPhone??

It’s hard for me to imagine that Apple would market a phone with such a rigid, unforgiving design. It’s like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Just my 2 cents...

originally posted by: netbound
Within the OP the following is stated:
Cornell University School of Law, holds "that the 5th and 14th Amendments require all governmental intrusions into fundamental rights and liberties be fair and reasonable and in furtherance of a legitimate governmental interest."

In fairness, I’d like to make one small change to the statement quoted above:
netbound, holds "that the 5th and 14th Amendments should require all governmental and Corporate intrusions into fundamental rights and liberties be fair and reasonable and in furtherance of a legitimate governmental or Coporate interest."

Just as the government should have to justify any intrusion into our fundamental rights to privacy and free speech, so should corporate entities be held to the same measure.

Well, you could probably always try to sue them in civil court. But the thing about it is that most people just sign all those rights away without reading the agreement they're signing. You can't sue someone if you signed a form that says you forfeit any rights you might have otherwise had.

a reply to: BrianFlanders

Well, you could probably always try to sue them in civil court. But the thing about it is that most people just sign all those rights away without reading the agreement they're signing. You can't sue someone if you signed a form that says you forfeit any rights you might have otherwise had.

Unfortunately we don't even sign anything these days. We just click a button that says we agree to the terms and conditions of the manufacturer before we use the product. Otherwise we're unable to use it. By clicking that button and then using the product we've signed all our rights away without even picking up a pen.

-dex

I dont understand why Apple cant unlock the phone put all the data onto a disc and give the disc to the FBI then reencrypt the phone - they dont need to show the FBI how its done or what they did so the FBI wont ever be able to do it themselves.

Maybe Apple should consider moving their headquarters to a country thats not as hostile to personal privacy and encryption?

Countries like China, or North Korea..

Don't you think the phone has already been cracked?

i know the security measures, but all you gotta do is clone the state of the phone, and when you fu**ed up the 10 times, you just re-instate the original clone, and carry on the crack.

Imho, its been cracked a long time ago. This is a game for the gallery.

Not only does it promote Apple, but also asking the public to agree with cracking phones, which according to the US gov. is terrorists.

Win-win situation ?

The public lost again, due to fear.

a reply to: kloejen

Cracked isn't the same as decrypted. Just saying.

originally posted by: BMorris
a reply to: kloejen

Cracked isn't the same as decrypted. Just saying.

You are new at computers? Cracking hashes is the same as decrypting... just saying.

a reply to: kloejen

i know the security measures, but all you gotta do is clone the state of the phone, and when you fu**ed up the 10 times, you just re-instate the original clone, and carry on the crack.

That's what had occurred to me as well.

1. Download the binary image from the phone
2. Execute it in a HW emulator
3. Script the User Interface to perform a brute force attack of all 100,000 possible codes
4. Refresh the image in the HW emulator for every 10 failed attempts

It really wouldn't take long to crack the phone using such a process. It does seem to me that the FBI is making much ado about nothing.

-dex

Its the religious right wing that wants the phones cracked. They want the ability to be able to monitor American's Internet use so they can take away the freedoms of Americans to impose what is called "Jail House Rule" over the country where Americans are made to feel like they are prisoners because someone knows information about them that the person would never normally have known which then leads to the mentally retarded person being viewed as God because who else would know intricate details of what you were doing on line?

The U.S. Religious Right Wing Government is a Mentally Retarded Facility.

Meanwhile hackers/identity thieves etc can get in...

I find it hard to believe they can't do this without creating the tools to do it, seems to me they just want to make it easier.

That said, if there is information that could be used to prevent terrorist attacks, and/or lead to the capture of terrorists... And, they are unable to get to this information because of all of this and, there is an attack the could have been prevented....

Who will you blame?

a reply to: ausername
I believe this has very little to do with cracking the phone.

I, along with a many other people, believe if they want into that phone, it was done on day one.

This is about cracking the people. This is about getting us to go along with the illegal act, and to stop us from screaming bloody murder when they do it anyway.

Apple is just trying to save its customer base. They know if they don't try to play the victim, a lot of folks will drop their product.

Apple is also playing the the role of the decoy. While we are watching Apple, we are not paying attention to what they are doing to our other phones and devices.

This may explain one of the reasons that people are ditching the smart phone, spy, and tracker devices, and returning to simple call and receive phones.

We are paying a lot for the privilege of having our masters spy and track us; and it is costing us a lot more than money.

The Return of the Dumb Phone