The death of the Hadith, and the rise of excommunication in Islam.

A pipe dream, some would say.

Infidel, others would say.

Absolutely necessary in the War On Terrorism, would say the people who understand fighting it at its roots.


Now granted, we have no "authoritative" figure who would do the excommunicating.


And on the other side "we" have more than enough "leaders" who will quote and push a Hadith quote before they pick up a Quran.


I was gonna put this in the rant section, but I'm not ranting really...
More hoping and praying.

Maybe we need a prayer forum, long term.


But for now, this forum will do.




Could you imagine an Ummah (worldwide Muslim community) who rejected the barbarism of the Hadith.

Could you imagine an Ummah who had a leader, a true Caliph, who would excommunicate the likes of Al Bagdhadi, the self appointed "Caliph".


Can you understand my prayer, Lord.

It's just a start, maybe even hogwash to you, Lord...
& no better than you're actual future plans...

Just think about it for us.

To the Merciful... My Heart, Mind & Soul.

Ameen.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs
The catch is that historically the Caliphate has gone with political unity, or at least acknowledged political supremacy. Not easy to achieve, under present conditions.
The last well-recognised Caliphs were the Ottoman Sultans.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

May I inquire,..... without the Hadith, how does one know the exact sequence of specific postures, specific phrases, and specific dua to recite during prayers?

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

May I inquire,..... without the Hadith, how does one know the exact sequence of specific postures, specific phrases, and specific dua to recite during prayers?

Ask a Sufi Muslim. They seem to access the same divinity just fine, Hadith or no. Or ask a Quranist, for that matter.

a reply to: Sahabi

6:38... "We did not leave anything out of this book."



Please stop with that common specious argument.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

I'm not a muslim, although I have an idea what that faith is all about, in its pure and non-fundamentally spoiled form. I have to say this: A leader, any leader, has to justify its ability for being a leader by secular means, ideas, rules of proper conduct and concepts. The god-concept, any god-concept, has failed to free humanity from the enslavement of religious/spiritual fundamentalism yet big time, whoms only purpose is: To run the show from "behind" by comming up with so called laws, ruls and regulations that have no proper justification in modern days scientific political science. There indeed is a very good reason why democratic nations/countrys do have a constitution.

And no, I'm not saying that political science only can provide proper rules. But at least in some areas of this world, science does come up with some ideas how to better rule, run and regulate the (political) show.

How, by any means, can ancient so called scriptures have better and more elaborate ideas about modern times political problems than proper INDEPENDENT scientific approaches to try to solve the problems? Serious question.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
Could you imagine an Ummah who had a leader, a true Caliph, who would excommunicate the likes of Al Bagdhadi, the self appointed "Caliph".

I could imagine you going through a few of those at first as the nutjobs like Al Bagdahdi assassinated them one by one for not being Muslim-y enough.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

I am here for conversation, not argument my Brother. It is a valid question. Yes, the Qur'an mentions prostrating and certain prayer times, but let's be completely open and honest,.... to perform salah in congregation, the Qur'an is tremendously vague in coordinating congregational prayer. Without the Hadith, salah would be anarchy. All would bow, prostrate, and raise hands in any order or sequence they so choose.

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

May I inquire,..... without the Hadith, how does one know the exact sequence of specific postures, specific phrases, and specific dua to recite during prayers?

Ask a Sufi Muslim. They seem to access the same divinity just fine, Hadith or no. Or ask a Quranist, for that matter.

Please correct me if I'm wrong,.... "traditional" Islamic prayer is more akin to "submissive worship", while Sufi prayer is more about "mystical communion" with the Divine. Traditional Islamic prayer versus Sufi prayer has two very different aims.

a reply to: Sahabi

I apologise for my abrupt response, Sahabi.

You must remember that that quoted verse applies to the Faith.

If those prostrations etc were necessary I believe the Quran would say it, my brother.

As it stands I see it as personal choice.


I still stand by the fact that the Hadith are keeping Islam (mainly Eastern Islam) in a perpetual dark age.

a reply to: Sahabi


Why and what for praying anway? IF there is a loving god, named Allah or otherwise, why asking for anything by "bowing"?

How comes something like prayer is even neccessary to change anything? If it would be a proper means to change anything anyway, how comes that nothing has changed much so far, by using prayers and bowing to some deity? Serious question.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
Could you imagine an Ummah who had a leader, a true Caliph, who would excommunicate the likes of Al Bagdhadi, the self appointed "Caliph".

I could imagine you going through a few of those at first as the nutjobs like Al Bagdahdi assassinated them one by one for not being Muslim-y enough.

You could be right, and most probably are...

I think the tug of war would be arduous...

I guess this twofer I'm asking for is probably nigh on impossible.

But it's worth putting it out into the Universe to be heard.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

I agree with you, anything that goes towards the elimination or minimization of fundamentalism is a positive.

a reply to: Willingly

Forgive me for not going into all that, but this is more about the theology of the topic, not the philosophy.

That's a whole new thread to be asked & answered by someone more knowledgable than myself.

originally posted by: Sahabi

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

May I inquire,..... without the Hadith, how does one know the exact sequence of specific postures, specific phrases, and specific dua to recite during prayers?

Ask a Sufi Muslim. They seem to access the same divinity just fine, Hadith or no. Or ask a Quranist, for that matter.

Please correct me if I'm wrong,.... "traditional" Islamic prayer is more akin to "submissive worship", while Sufi prayer is more about "mystical communion" with the Divine. Traditional Islamic prayer versus Sufi prayer has two very different aims.

How do you think the Umma did it before the Ulama folks popped up, interpreting the Hadith? Or before the Hadith?

There was a period after Muhammad died where the Khalifa only went by what was in the Quran. Much like the service the Christian scholars provided for rulers in Europe, some influential Muslims needed a way to identify who to punish and how to control. The Ulama, in large part, fulfilled that role.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Yes, an Islam without the Ulama and Hadith would change the world.

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Yes, an Islam without the Ulama and Hadith would change the world.

Yes, and to be perfectly honest I'd prefer "anarchy" during salat than anarchy across the world due to the words of men who lived 250 years after the Prophet passed away.


I've never come to terms with that fact, as if they weren't important enough to put down on paper for 250 years and all of a sudden it's detrimental to understanding the Quran.

I think that fallacy has a name, but I can't think of it.

Why create a power pyramid when the Muslim world could create a place where every Muslim can create questions for the rest of the Muslim community to vote on directly as in direct democracy?

Switzerland's direct democracy can be a good start to create a model.
direct-democracy.geschichte-schweiz.ch...

What a figure head say is not as important as what the people belonging to any group thinks.

a reply to: Willingly

According to Islam, a Muslim should offer salah (prayer) five times a day, with mentions of bowing, prostrating, and raising hands. Additionally, Muslims are encouraged to pray in the mosque or in congregation as much as possible.

Now, my point in joining this thread is this; without the Hadith, the complete sequential mechanisms of prayer are lacking. The specific supplications and the specific motions and movements are lacking. The methodology and etiquettes of congregational prayer are lacking, as well as the subtle nuances of times and conditions.

How can a mosque full of believers coordinate their congregational prayers if the specifics are missing from the Qur'an? Without proper guidelines, anyone could just pray whichever way they want.

This may seem as nitpicking, but having guidelines for prayer are very important if it is to be uniform and in congregation.

a reply to: Abysha

Before the Hadith, Muslim simply copied Muhammad. After Muhammad, the Muslims copied their leaders. All of this copying, imitating, and explanation set the foundation for the Hadith. We could just go back to blindly imitating if that is preferable to written doctrine.