UK Referendum 23 June 2016 - Will it be an EU BREXIT or Not?

a reply to: bigyin

I'm voting IN for 2 reasons
To bring about Scottish Independence and get my country back. (if result is Out).....

As I've pointed out to you before I really fail to see the logic with this reasoning.

The Scottish people have far more say over their own affairs than say those of us here in North East England etc.
These devolved powers give you a significant say on exactly how you are governed.

There is growing support in the UK towards increased devolved power fro ALL the regions.

This is the exact opposite of the direction the EU is taking.
The EU is planning to give itself even greater powers and openly states that it seeks ultimate authority over all constituent national assemblies - that includes Holyrood!

The EU Commission is drafting legislation that will ban all future referenda on EU related issues in all of its constituent nations - a future referendum on Scottish independence would be prohibited by the EU....the very body you are voting to remain in in order to gain independence!

I understand devolved power isn't independence, but first of all only a year ago the Scottish people voted against independence and secondly devolved power is a damn sight more power than you'll ever have if you remain in the EU.
The powers Holyrood has at present and the say the Scottish people have over matters that directly affect them will just be a distant memory if the UK votes to remain in the EU.

To show English people the agony of failing to get your country back. (if result is In)

I don't get this attitude.
It reeks of bitterness and bigotry.
What have the ordinary, everyday English people ever done to you and your countryfolk?

You'd forsake your own independence for some twisted notion of vengeance against people who really are no different to yourself?

I'd really hate to be so consumed with such malevolence.

I've asked you these questions before in other this and other threads yet you've never answered, why?

a reply to: bigyin

Until Scotland is independent we do not have our country back.

You've never had your country.

Scotland asked England for Union, so your independence was never taken away from you it was given away by those who ruled you.
Your nobility, who treat you just as badly as our nobility treat us, sold you down the river.

There never was some mythical time when Scotland was 'free' and life was great.

a reply to: bigyin

Nonsense , you have all of the benefits of independence with the safety blanket of the Union right now.
What state would a fully independent Scotland be in now with the collapse of the oil market , that would no doubt be England's fault too and we'd be expected to bail you out.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: bigyin


I've asked you these questions before in other this and other threads yet you've never answered, why?

To be honest it's pointless responding to your questions. You and those like you have already decided that Scotland should be grateful to England for its very existance. You've done so much for us over the years we really should get down on our knees and beg forgiveness.

Not going to happen. England has plundered Scotlands resources including it's people going back to Highland Clearances when sheep were considered more valuable than people and the people were either killed or shipped off to Canada

As for our oil, Scotland has seen nothing from 50 years of our resource being plundered and the money squandered. Unlike Norway who saved the money and still have it. Scotland can stand on it's own feet without oil.

No I'm happy to follow the SNP who are doing a fantastic job of running Scotland within the constraints put on them by Westminster. Scotland puts a lot more money into Westminster than it gets back. We would be far better off out of UK and one day that will happen.

Hopefully the UK result for EU ref will be out. You all will be happy. Scotland will then ask EU to let us remain. It will be one more step to Independence.

originally posted by: bigyin

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: bigyin


I've asked you these questions before in other this and other threads yet you've never answered, why?

To be honest it's pointless responding to your questions. You and those like you have already decided that Scotland should be grateful to England for its very existance. You've done so much for us over the years we really should get down on our knees and beg forgiveness.

Not going to happen. England has plundered Scotlands resources including it's people going back to Highland Clearances when sheep were considered more valuable than people and the people were either killed or shipped off to Canada

As for our oil, Scotland has seen nothing from 50 years of our resource being plundered and the money squandered. Unlike Norway who saved the money and still have it. Scotland can stand on it's own feet without oil.

No I'm happy to follow the SNP who are doing a fantastic job of running Scotland within the constraints put on them by Westminster. Scotland puts a lot more money into Westminster than it gets back. We would be far better off out of UK and one day that will happen.

Hopefully the UK result for EU ref will be out. You all will be happy. Scotland will then ask EU to let us remain. It will be one more step to Independence.

It would be great to get Scotland out of the UK. For different reasons we want the same thing.

a reply to: bigyin

I've come to the opinion that I'm not really bothered either way if Scotland is independent or not.
I'd prefer it to stay as part of the Union but its really up to the Scots themselves....and they voted on that last year.

What I don't get is your desire to surrender what control you do have over your own affairs to a heavily centralised bureaucratic and dictatorial EU and forever give up all hopes you have for total independence.

The EU is stripping powers away from national assemblies and you clearly state you'd prefer that than what you have now or in the future within the Union - essentially less independence.

It makes absolutely no sense at all - one contradicts the other.

And you make no attempt to explain your bitterness and vitriol aimed at ordinary, everyday English.

British MP Jo Cox has been shot and killed. Reports of the murderer shouting 'Britain First'.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: bigyin

I've come to the opinion that I'm not really bothered either way if Scotland is independent or not.
I'd prefer it to stay as part of the Union but its really up to the Scots themselves....and they voted on that last year.

What I don't get is your desire to surrender what control you do have over your own affairs to a heavily centralised bureaucratic and dictatorial EU and forever give up all hopes you have for total independence.

The EU is stripping powers away from national assemblies and you clearly state you'd prefer that than what you have now or in the future within the Union - essentially less independence.

It makes absolutely no sense at all - one contradicts the other.

And you make no attempt to explain your bitterness and vitriol aimed at ordinary, everyday English.

Do you ever listen or pay attention to anything I say. You are so blinded by your hatred of Scots.

I am not the only Scot voting the way I'm voting and for the same reasons. Most of Scotland is voting to Remain in EU not just me. The leader of SNP has said over and over she wants all of the UK to vote to remain. So on that basis I have to vote remain even though personally I dislike the EU.

A consequence of this voting has the high probability of England voting out and Scotland voting in. That gives Scotland another reason to be independent. I like that and that trumps any dislike of EU I have personally.

Another consequence of this voting could be that Scotland tips the balance and keeps UK in EU. I don't have any preference on that one way or the other, but I expect the English who wanted out will be furious at Scots. I like that they will be furious because English people complain constantly about Scots who want independence and the continually run Scotland down saying we are incapable of looking after ourselves. So after 300 years of being belittled by a much bigger and threatening neighbour it will be nice to see the tables turned for once. A bit like beating England at football. Doesn't happen very often but when it does it feels great.

There is no hate of English people from me or any Scot I know. But Scots are clearly hated by many English you being one of them.

Today on LBC radio a part of Sky News a high profile presenter Shelagh Fogarty linked todays murder of Jo Cox to the SNP and it's members. A clearly outrageous and hateful thing to say and obviously an attack on all Scottish people. I don't know why she did this maybe because the guy who did it comes from Scotland. It's just another example of the London Establishment belittling Scotland and it's people and showing that they have zero knowledge of what Scotland is about.

And do you really think I give a sh1t about your opinion of whether Scotland should be independent or not ? What makes you think it's got anything to do with you. How friggin pompous and arrogant can you get.

a reply to: bigyin

Do you ever listen or pay attention to anything I say.

Of course I listen, I just don't understand your logic or reasoning.

You are so blinded by your hatred of Scots.

I don't hate the Scots....and I don't think I've ever shown any anti-Scottish sentiments, quite the contrary. Please show me any examples of what you call my 'hatred of Scots'.

I am not the only Scot voting the way I'm voting and for the same reasons.

So what?
Just because many others are voting the same way doesn't necessarily make it the right thing to do, does it?

The leader of SNP has said over and over she wants all of the UK to vote to remain. So on that basis I have to vote remain even though personally I dislike the EU.

Why do you 'have' to vote remain just because Nicola Sturgeon says so?
Do you just blindly obey everything the leader of the particular party you support says?
Are you incapable of independent thought and reasoning?

A consequence of this voting has the high probability of England voting out and Scotland voting in. That gives Scotland another reason to be independent.

Why?
If the majority in the north of England votes to come out of the EU does that by extension then mean that we should be independent of Southern England?

I like that and that trumps any dislike of EU I have personally.

Why?

Another consequence of this voting could be that Scotland tips the balance and keeps UK in EU. I don't have any preference on that one way or the other, but I expect the English who wanted out will be furious at Scots.

Personally I wouldn't be 'furious', provided they voted that way because they genuinely thought that was the best option for both Scotland and England....its called democracy.
I think I'd be disgusted if Scotland voted Remain simply to piss English people off - that would say far more about the bitterness of the Scottish people than anything else.

I like that they will be furious because English people complain constantly about Scots who want independence and the continually run Scotland down saying we are incapable of looking after ourselves.

Some do, most don't.
Should I judge all Scots on the bitterness and bigotry you constantly show?
Of course not, because I know most Scots aren't as bigoted and bitter as you appear to be regardless of their viewpoints.

So after 300 years of being belittled by a much bigger and threatening neighbour it will be nice to see the tables turned for once. A bit like beating England at football. Doesn't happen very often but when it does it feels great.

Please give me examples of this belittlement you mention.

There is no hate of English people from me or any Scot I know. But Scots are clearly hated by many English you being one of them.

Strange that, its nearly always Scots who I witness whinging, moaning and pigeon holing all English people.
Sure we have our share of bigots and idiots.....the ability to be a knobhead and moron isn't restricted to any one nationality.

I have many Scots friends and visit Scotland relatively frequently.....just because I have a different viewpoint to you and dislike the SNP does not mean I 'hate the Scots', that's just ridiculous.

Today on LBC radio a part of Sky News a high profile presenter Shelagh Fogarty linked todays murder of Jo Cox to the SNP and it's members. A clearly outrageous and hateful thing to say and obviously an attack on all Scottish people. I don't know why she did this maybe because the guy who did it comes from Scotland. It's just another example of the London Establishment belittling Scotland and it's people and showing that they have zero knowledge of what Scotland is about.

I can't really comment on that.
I am unaware of the circumstances surrounding this murder as I've been out.
It would help if you provided a link to support what you allege.

If this reporter did imply such a thing then she needs reprimanding etc.

As a general rule of thumb Londoner's and those from the Home Counties tend to treat anyone from 'the North' with the same contempt, its not something they preserve just for the Scots, they look down their nose at everybody.

And do you really think I give a sh1t about your opinion of whether Scotland should be independent or not ?

No....and I don't care if you give a shIt or not....its a discussion board and that's we do, exchange opinions.
If you don't want to listen to other people's opinions and discuss and debate what the hell are you doing here?

What makes you think it's got anything to do with you. How friggin pompous and arrogant can you get.

Scottish independence hasn't really got anything to do with me but that doesn't stop me from having an opinion, does it?
Your vote on EU membership does have an effect on me.

But you still haven't replied to many of the issues I've asked you.
Perhaps you should ask Nicola Sturgeon or your local SNP representative what you should think first before replying?

a reply to: Freeborn

For the benefit of the one person not up to speed on Jo Cox murder

Shelagh Fogarty from North England abusing Scots


How do I block abusive haters on ATS ?

a reply to: bigyin

Are you trying to insinuate that I am an 'abusive hater'?

If so please give me even one example of my abusive hatred.
Come on, just one example - if I'm that abusive surely there are plenty of examples you can find, I only want one.

As for the Jo Cox murder; I was out most of yesterday so have only seen the news headlines and snippets of news.
What's wrong with that?

Latest from Pollstation after over 132,460 has Vote Leave on 81%.

www.pollstation.uk...

originally posted by: bigyin
a reply to: Freeborn

How do I block abusive haters on ATS ?

I don't think it is necessary for anyone to block anyone on ATS the *moderators*

do an excellent job.

ATS is an excellent board for debate and discussion, however i have to say

where as most on this thread have discussed the subject of the thread *UK

referendum on 23 June 2016 will it be an EU Brexit or not* .... all i can

recall from your posts is little to do with the subject but a bitter hatred of

ANYTHING English.


Most of the time I am posting on ATS I really don't even know where any other

posters are from, rarely is that of any importance, whereas there opinions are.


I could understand a *pride in your heritage* but you don't even com over as

*proud* you come over as bitter and twisted, and consumed with hatred. So much

so as that *hate* comes before everything else and you are unable to discuss any

subject in hand.


And just to clarify this is not a hate post.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: bigyin

The EU is planning to give itself even greater powers and openly states that it seeks ultimate authority over all constituent national assemblies - that includes Holyrood!

Reference, please?

The EU Commission is drafting legislation that will ban all future referenda on EU related issues in all of its constituent nations

The Commission can draft as much as it likes. They can't put it into effect.

a reply to: eletheia

I know what the subject of the thread is. I have sought to draw parallels with the experience we had in Scotland during our referendum.

Whether that is useful or not I don't know, but it appears to me to be a mirror image of the same arguments.

I don't hate England or English but I do receive a lot of anti Scottish sentiment on here.

The only time I mention England is when it appears certain people are using the same arguments to call for an 'Independent' UK from EU which I used for an Independent Scotland they don't seem to see the hypocrisy of their argument .

I really don't care what England does in EU referendum it is entirely up to them, but you have to accept that when 50 million English voters decide what to do based on whats good for England they will drag the other countries of the UK with them. Scotland's 3 million voters wont make any difference to overall vote

I will be voting to Remain in EU for the reasons I've already explained but I can see lots of reasons for leaving and I have posted up several aspects of EU I find distasteful. So I have given a fairly balanced view but nonetheless admitting that despite everything my overall aim is to achieve the best prospect of an Independent Scotland.

If any of that makes me anti English I don't understand why. I am pro Scottish. A very small country which struggles to get its way against a much bigger an more powerful neighbour and supposed equal partner in a political union which I along with many of my countrymen think we should leave.

If you don't want to hear the arguments from a Scottish perspective just say so and I will leave you to it.

originally posted by: bigyin
I know what the subject of the thread is. I have sought to draw parallels with the experience we had in Scotland during our referendum.
Whether that is useful or not I don't know, but it appears to me to be a mirror image of the same arguments.

It is hardly pertinent to make comparisons between a union on the same piece

of land and of over 400 years old, to that of a union on another continent of

only some 40 years, and which was originally and *supposedly* formed for trade

and not political and closer intergration. Personally I look on the Scots, Welsh

and Irish as family....and families don't always get on, but when push comes to

shove they always have each others back. A little piece of info that it was a Scots

King who coined Great Britain and was instigator in the *union*

Union of the Crowns of England and Scotland 1603 (over 400 years ago)
James V1 King of Scotland became James1 of England. In 1604 he decreed that
the Imperial Crown Royal title would use the term *Great Brittaine* to
refer to the Imperial Crown made up of Scotland and England

On January 1607 the Scottish Parliament passed an act of union which would
bring into effect the Treaty of Union which declared That the two kingdoms
(one King) shall here of and forever after be united into ONE kingdom
by the name of *GREAT BRITAIN*

I don't hate England or English but I do receive a lot of anti Scottish sentiment on here

Perhaps your attitude invites it??.

The only time I mention England is when it appears certain people are using the same arguments to call for an 'Independent' UK from EU which I used for an Independent Scotland they don't seem to see the hypocrisy of their argument

Like I said ones family the other an imposter to our internal affairs.

I really don't care what England does in EU referendum it is entirely up to them, but you have to accept that when 50 million English voters decide what to do based on whats good for England they will drag the other countries of the UK with them. Scotland's 3 million voters wont make any difference to overall vote

The 50 million English voters can be divided, and there are the Irish votes?

and the Welsh? (though i did see somewhere they are more for being out!)

Of course the Scots votes count .... ALL VOTES COUNT it is your democratic

right, and because of that 50% chance you could loose too ...majority wins.

I will be voting to Remain in EU for the reasons I've already explained but I can see lots of reasons for leaving and I have posted up several aspects of EU I find distasteful. So I have given a fairly balanced view but nonetheless admitting that despite everything my overall aim is to achieve the best prospect of an Independent Scotland.

Which is your right but it is my opinion and i think maybe others on this

thread may agree with me it looks very much like that you are cutting off

your nose to spite your face? Personally i think you are wrong in thinking

that if we remain IN you have a greater chance of an independent Scotland

the opposite is much more likely.

When people play the game you are of playing off one against another it

usually ends up leaving the player with *egg on their face* LOL!!

If any of that makes me anti English I don't understand why. I am pro Scottish. A very small country which struggles to get its way against a much bigger an more powerful neighbour and supposed equal partner in a political union

If you believe in democracy you will only get what you want some of the

time .... majority wins, but I cannot see a better alternative to democracy?

And the best of luck to you if you think you will get ANY say being in the EU.

As it expands it will take away ALL FREEDOM and choke any chance of CHOICE

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: bigyin
I know what the subject of the thread is. I have sought to draw parallels with the experience we had in Scotland during our referendum.
Whether that is useful or not I don't know, but it appears to me to be a mirror image of the same arguments.

It is hardly pertinent to make comparisons between a union on the same piece

of land and of over 400 years old, to that of a union on another continent of

only some 40 years, and which was originally and *supposedly* formed for trade

and not political and closer intergration. Personally I look on the Scots, Welsh

and Irish as family....and families don't always get on, but when push comes to

shove they always have each others back. A little piece of info that it was a Scots

King who coined Great Britain and was instigator in the *union*

Union of the Crowns of England and Scotland 1603 (over 400 years ago)
James V1 King of Scotland became James1 of England. In 1604 he decreed that
the Imperial Crown Royal title would use the term *Great Brittaine* to
refer to the Imperial Crown made up of Scotland and England

On January 1607 the Scottish Parliament passed an act of union which would
bring into effect the Treaty of Union which declared That the two kingdoms
(one King) shall here of and forever after be united into ONE kingdom
by the name of *GREAT BRITAIN*

I don't hate England or English but I do receive a lot of anti Scottish sentiment on here

Perhaps your attitude invites it??.

The only time I mention England is when it appears certain people are using the same arguments to call for an 'Independent' UK from EU which I used for an Independent Scotland they don't seem to see the hypocrisy of their argument

Like I said ones family the other an imposter to our internal affairs.

I really don't care what England does in EU referendum it is entirely up to them, but you have to accept that when 50 million English voters decide what to do based on whats good for England they will drag the other countries of the UK with them. Scotland's 3 million voters wont make any difference to overall vote

The 50 million English voters can be divided, and there are the Irish votes?

and the Welsh? (though i did see somewhere they are more for being out!)

Of course the Scots votes count .... ALL VOTES COUNT it is your democratic

right, and because of that 50% chance you could loose too ...majority wins.

I will be voting to Remain in EU for the reasons I've already explained but I can see lots of reasons for leaving and I have posted up several aspects of EU I find distasteful. So I have given a fairly balanced view but nonetheless admitting that despite everything my overall aim is to achieve the best prospect of an Independent Scotland.

Which is your right but it is my opinion and i think maybe others on this

thread may agree with me it looks very much like that you are cutting off

your nose to spite your face? Personally i think you are wrong in thinking

that if we remain IN you have a greater chance of an independent Scotland

the opposite is much more likely.

When people play the game you are of playing off one against another it

usually ends up leaving the player with *egg on their face* LOL!!

If any of that makes me anti English I don't understand why. I am pro Scottish. A very small country which struggles to get its way against a much bigger an more powerful neighbour and supposed equal partner in a political union

If you believe in democracy you will only get what you want some of the

time .... majority wins, but I cannot see a better alternative to democracy?

And the best of luck to you if you think you will get ANY say being in the EU.

As it expands it will take away ALL FREEDOM and choke any chance of CHOICE

Concur with your sentiments!

The nose is just the beginning.

We'll see on Thursday, but I firmly believe the idea of Brexit is dead.

originally posted by: UKTruth
We'll see on Thursday, but I firmly believe the idea of Brexit is dead.

I beg to differ a BREXIT from the EU is going to happen!

originally posted by: bigyin
I really don't care what England does in EU referendum it is entirely up to them, but you have to accept that when 50 million English voters decide what to do based on whats good for England they will drag the other countries of the UK with them. Scotland's 3 million voters wont make any difference to overall vote

But this can be argued both ways...
Say the Scottish and Northern Ireland vote is predominantly Remain and England and Wales is narrowly Leave leading to an overall Remain vote, then we could say that the Scottish and North Irish people have kept us IN the EU.

If that happened, I would be glad to see the back of the Scots.

Don't get me wrong bigyin, I agree with a lot what you say but I feel you're wrong in voting Remain.

At least the British government are giving back powers to Scotland (it may not be as much as you would like), but good luck trying to get any powers back from the EU! I guarantee you are more likely to give away yet even more power.