UK Referendum 23 June 2016 - Will it be an EU BREXIT or Not?

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite

originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

I vote in as apart from the xenophobes I can't see a very strong reason to say otherwise. Whatever argument Farage makes I balance against the money he has made for being an MEP and famously declining to actually vote on many issues, whatever options other MPs make for an out vote I will balance against what we lose from an out vote.

For Labour, that party who steadfastedly said they wouldn't offer the people of the UK a referendum on the subject: they have little argument to make as they only seem pissed that we are allowed to offer an opinion. For anyone saying that this in some way has anything to do with Scotland and Westminster and is therefore voting out, well done, nice to know you are in utter disagreement with the SNP who have stated all along that they believe being in Europe is better than being out. Don't get bitter about it though.....

You are entitled to your belief and vote. And yes Labour lost the election because they did not offer a referendum. I don't quite know why. It was foolish.

But 5-10 years from now will be when the big regret comes if UK stays in! Remember what I state here! OUT is the only wise action for me and for the longer term benefit of the British people as a whole. Not the greedy who wants us to stay to further fuel their greed who don't care if things go tits up later because they have their security and insulation from the impact. The greedy/elite/aristocracy/etc wants us IN (that is who Cameron and is want to keep my job followers represent) - Ask your self why when we are relinquishing power and control of our own destiny to Brussels and the EU!

If you are serious about conducting a poll then you should refrain from bias either way otherwise you are just being shown as attempting to get people to have the same opinion as you. You are hijacking your own thread. You would have been better calling it "I want to leave the EU, who agrees with me?"

As I said in my original post, if and when the actual people representing both sides of this present full and clear facts then I will make my decision, not based on peoples opinion. For what it's worth, I've had a peripheral involvement in setting up places of work - and giving work to people - in the UK through a mixture of tax breaks and incentives (all legal before anyone thinks otherwise) from both our government and the EU from a non EU company that could just have easily have placed the work elsewhere in the world, so it's not as black and white as you would love to paint it.

It is important that all who contribute to this ATS vote air their views and arguments for IN or OUT and also important that the OP does the same. It is highly unlikely that any bias as you say will sway any ATS voters because they have their own minds and are capable of assessing the options, views and opinions of their fellow countrymen (and views of ineligible contributors). This is a vote with debating slant. And if it does help ATS Brits firm up their decision either way then the outcome is democratic.

Don't think too much. This is a thread to enable ATSers to air their views and state the way they will vote. At the end of the day, it is only the Referendum vote that matters but wouldn't it be interesting if the ATS vote matched the vote on 23 June 2016.

THIS IS WHY I WANT THE THREAD TO KEEP ROLLING covering the debate, spin, antics etc as we get closer to the biggest day in UK and possibly EU political history!!!

originally posted by: stinkelbaum
funny thing i'm noticing.
all the people here that want out, or on radio and tv, all claim scaremongering, media spin from the stay campaign.
me, wanting to stay, all i see is scaremongering and media spin from the out team.

have we all shut our bias sensors off?

If you want to talk about spin then watch Cameron's talk in Slough. Unbelievable BS!

Vote with your conscience and wisely is my advice and if you are tired of the greed model and mentality then there is only one way to vote (in my view)!

a reply to: stinkelbaum

What exactly is scaremongering about wishing for a sovereign independent country?
What is scaremongering about wanting to use the seat the UK has in the WTO?
How about embracing and welcoming immigration while having absolute control on the numbers based on need, same as we deport US/Canadians/Australians/New Zealanders/etc if they are not useful to the UK?
If you support controls on the rest of the world who can work here, why not Europe?

...no, I see way more scaremongering, but it is my opinion alone, and we both have a single vote each so whatever, I guess we haven't got long to endure the campaign at least.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

I hope for a more convincing result either way for the issue to be put to bed for a generation at least.
See the simmering still in Scotland with 55/45, that referendum decided nothing.

...I don't take much notice of polls now after the fiasco of the last general election, this ATS poll thread is interesting though so cheers for keeping the tally and posting it here.
I must say I'm not surprised with the preliminary results lol

Agree! The ATS vote is running about 60% OUT. I will update after page 7.

originally posted by: stinkelbaum
funny thing i'm noticing.
all the people here that want out, or on radio and tv, all claim scaremongering, media spin from the stay campaign.
me, wanting to stay, all i see is scaremongering and media spin from the out team.

have we all shut our bias sensors off?

Yeah of course there is some scaremongering from the out campaigners, but you seriously believe there is no scaremongering from the remain campaign?

Okay then.....

Talk about spin from the MSM. Sky News ran with the headline that a fifth of people questioned said they felt more inclined to remain in the E.U after 'call me Dave's' reforms. They ran and ran with it, then at the end the true figures were two thirds felt more inclined to leave when questioned. Now when I went to school, two thirds is around forty six percent more than one fifth, but let's not let a little thing like that get in the way.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978

originally posted by: stinkelbaum
funny thing i'm noticing.
all the people here that want out, or on radio and tv, all claim scaremongering, media spin from the stay campaign.
me, wanting to stay, all i see is scaremongering and media spin from the out team.

have we all shut our bias sensors off?

Yeah of course there is some scaremongering from the out campaigners, but you seriously believe there is no scaremongering from the remain campaign?

Okay then.....

Talk about spin from the MSM. Sky News ran with the headline that a fifth of people questioned said they felt more inclined to remain in the E.U after 'call me Dave's' reforms. They ran and ran with it, then at the end the true figures were two thirds felt more inclined to leave when questioned. Now when I went to school, two thirds is around forty six percent more than one fifth, but let's not let a little thing like that get in the way.

Same when I went to school and I could do the sums in my head. We didn't have calculators when I was at school.

That aside, half the people have sprouts and half have petite pios and of the petite pios you will have approx 1/3rd that would like to have sprouts so they raise their game and make a leap of faith (find the courage) and you end up with a +60% OUT vote. After all would any individual want to be on the wrong side of a law made in and by another country or the EU when preferring to take ones punishment at and dished out from home!! On a country scale one can imagine the impact and issues which is what we have. Its a joke and a wise man knows when to bail on a deal that's flawed and stacked against both the country and the individual!

a reply to: eletheia

I starred you comment. I enjoy reading your posts eletheia and what you say makes sense.

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Your thread and the ongoing stats is interesting. I hope it keeps going.

originally posted by: Morrad
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Your thread and the ongoing stats is interesting. I hope it keeps going.

Yes it currently contradicts the polls shown by the media (which I don't trust). We have the OUT running at approx 60% but the media polls have it close.

And yes I will try to keep it going and discussing the debates and arguments (and spin) as they arise. The more contributors and ATS voters the better (eligible and ineligible).

And which way will you cast your vote (assuming you are eligible, if not say anyway)?

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Yes I am able to vote. I mentioned a few pages back that I was undecided but swaying towards out. My preliminary vote is out and I will only reconsider if hard facts come to light. I have spent a few months looking at the pros and cons on both sides to make an informed choice but opinions are contradictory, even on the same side. The opinions I have researched are not supported with facts which makes them speculation.

I think the democracy issue will nail it for me.

originally posted by: Morrad
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Yes I am able to vote. I mentioned a few pages back that I was undecided but swaying towards out. My preliminary vote is out and I will only reconsider if hard facts come to light. I have spent a few months looking at the pros and cons on both sides to make an informed choice but opinions are contradictory, even on the same side. The opinions I have researched are not supported with facts which makes them speculation.

I think the democracy issue will nail it for me.

Well whatever you decide, at least by continuing to contribute to the thread and reviewing the opinions of others it will help. For me there are 6 reasons why I am voting out
1. UK Laws should be both defined and administered by the state of ones birth
2. Immigration should not impact native housing, schooling, healthcare or job availability
3. UK tax payers should not have to provide benefits for immigrants that are not part of a British born family member
4. UK folk should be trained to fill the skill gap for jobs in the health service etc
5. The number of immigrants if ridiculous (600,000 a year) or more, what are we buying into, what about safety of our daughters, sons, elderly etc!!!
6. I want more democracy not less and a better independent political system for the UK.

originally posted by: Morrad
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Yes I am able to vote. I mentioned a few pages back that I was undecided but swaying towards out. My preliminary vote is out and I will only reconsider if hard facts come to light. I have spent a few months looking at the pros and cons on both sides to make an informed choice but opinions are contradictory, even on the same side. The opinions I have researched are not supported with facts which makes them speculation.

I think the democracy issue will nail it for me.

Well whatever you decide, at least by continuing to contribute to the thread and reviewing the opinions of others it will help. For me there are 5 reasons why I am voting out
1. UK Laws should be both defined and administered by the state of ones birth
2. Immigration should not impact native housing, schooling, healthcare or job availability
3. UK tax payers should not have to provide benefits for immigrants that are not part of a British born family member
4. UK folk should be trained to fill the skill gap for jobs in the health service etc
5. The number of immigrants if ridiculous (600,000 a year) or more, what are we buying into, what about safety of our daughters, sons, elderly etc!!!
6. I want more democracy not less and a better independent political system for the UK.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978


all the people here that want out, or on radio and tv, all claim scaremongering, media spin from the stay campaign.
me, wanting to stay, all i see is scaremongering and media spin from the out team.

Yeah of course there is some scaremongering from the out campaigners, but you seriously believe there is no scaremongering from the remain campaign?

Okay then..... you want to talk scaremongering/bias?


I have my main meal between 6.00 and 7.00 pm and because I'm boring

I watch the BBC news till 6.30 and then switch over to the ITV news.


Yesterdays BBC news said after all the hype regarding the referendum that

the £ had fallen to a low it had not been for sometime. They followed that

item with an economist view. The economist said it was unlikely to be due

to the referendum as it was too soon for that and that it was more to do with

the price of oil and something else (lol I forget what!)


At 6.30 I switched over to the ITV news where the same subject of the fall in

the £ came up, and without any follow up interview as to the possible cause.

So coming straight after the subject of the referendum and no following

interview it could well be assumed the reason was due to the fact that

there could be a Britexit ....... propaganda much

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978


all the people here that want out, or on radio and tv, all claim scaremongering, media spin from the stay campaign.
me, wanting to stay, all i see is scaremongering and media spin from the out team.

Yeah of course there is some scaremongering from the out campaigners, but you seriously believe there is no scaremongering from the remain campaign?

Okay then..... you want to talk scaremongering/bias?


I have my main meal between 6.00 and 7.00 pm and because I'm boring

I watch the BBC news till 6.30 and then switch over to the ITV news.


Yesterdays BBC news said after all the hype regarding the referendum that

the £ had fallen to a low it had not been for sometime. They followed that

item with an economist view. The economist said it was unlikely to be due

to the referendum as it was too soon for that and that it was more to do with

the price of oil and something else (lol I forget what!)


At 6.30 I switched over to the ITV news where the same subject of the fall in

the £ came up, and without any follow up interview as to the possible cause.

So coming straight after the subject of the referendum and no following

interview it could well be assumed the reason was due to the fact that

there could be a Britexit ....... propaganda much

Ditto on that mate!

Fear, Spin and maybe we can con the dim! Order of the day mate! Never trust those that have over those that have not!! Vote OUT.

The following is a post of mine from another thread I am reposting it here

as I think it is relevant to the subject of this thread too. It is something that

those wanting to stay in may not have considered, and I believe it needs

considering!!



IF the UK get the result of staying in the EU, people will expect that things

will return to 'normal' to what they were prior to the referendum.


WRONG


The UK will have exposed its weak under belly and the shackles/ties will be

reinforced to the extent that the UK will be smothered and subjugated into

submission............The British will be no more.


And just for fun *RULE BRITANIA*

originally posted by: eletheia

The following is a post of mine from another thread I am reposting it here

as I think it is relevant to the subject of this thread too. It is something that

those wanting to stay in may not have considered, and I believe it needs

considering!!



IF the UK get the result of staying in the EU, people will expect that things

will return to 'normal' to what they were prior to the referendum.


WRONG


The UK will have exposed its weak under belly and the shackles/ties will be

reinforced to the extent that the UK will be smothered and subjugated into

submission............The British will be no more.


And just for fun *RULE BRITANIA*

True!!

Massive exaggerated fear-mongering on Sky News about 5 mins ago. Its almost downright dishonest and lies to the people.

Apparently, 13 ex military leaders have signed a letter to say that it puts the UK at risk from Russia and ISIS if we leave the EU. Many of those that signed this letter are aristocracy i.e. LORDS.

Lord Dannet stated on Sky news that there is a relationship between the EU and NATO and that if we leave EU it may cause the break up of the EU and NATO. Liar!! Bloody impossible! You cant get more blatant than that. I expect this to backfire on the Tories!

There is no relationship whatsoever between the 2. If we leave EU there is no impact on NATO.

Unbelievable false statements made on SKY news to the British public. They must think we are stupid! This is why we should not trust the IN campaign! They are hiding the real motives!! Its greed and more greed for the elite!

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Well in BBC source it says we have around 200 brigadiers and generals. So the Leave Campaign need to approach spme of the 185 who havent signed this letter. Interesting that many who have signed this letter arent present Generals but nearly all former Generals now sitting in the House of Lords! 

Same with the FTSE companies who signed the letter yesterday Leave Campaign need to get in touch with the 400 who didnt. 

Project fear is in full swing and the Remain Campaign know they are in trouble hence why the Tory MP's voting to leave have been told they can only campaign in their spare time and not in their role of MP. 

Im sure Leave have got plenty of cards held close to their chest and they will show their hand closer to the time. Good thing is Remain are showing all their fear cards now so eventually will have nothing left to show

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

I do not believe that our nation will leave the European Union as a result of this referendum. A British Exit from the European Union would not necessitate the break up of the European Union, or NATO, but it would intensely destabilise those organisations and alliances. Also, I fail to see why it must be the case that our leaving the European Union, would have anything to do with our membership of NATO. Our reason for being part of NATO is not the same as the reason for the formation of the European superstate. NATO is a defence accord, not a Union of nations under a single identity and entity, nor is it a primarily financial Union of any depth or scope.

All our NATO membership means, is that all members of it have defence agreements with one another. Frankly, much of this stuff is waffle. What I would say is that Europe would be a weaker entity without British involvement, and that may have ramifications for Britain down the line, since a strong European Union, properly managed, would be a buffer between our shores and the spread of any military invasion, by nations to the East of EU borders.

That being said, defence wise, that would fall under the scope of our defence accords, which once again, are an entirely separate concern.

originally posted by: auraofblackI don't like Governbent, I want the opposite to them. That pig molesting muppet Cameron seems to forget that before the European union came about the UK was doing OK.

You are quite wrong. The EU did not force herself upon the UK - quite the other way around. The UK wanted to be part of the EU very badly - it was old De Gaulle who vetoed UK membership time and time again. Only when Pompidou became France's president, the UK was allowed in - and they really, really wanted in - badly.

See, the UK is not that great economical miracle y'all seem to think it is. In the 1950s the UK was still a powerful economy - mainly because of the spin-off of WWII. People were used to very high taxes, a huge defense budget, the scarcity of luxury and many in Government service. They were willing to work like slaves, all for the glory of the Empire. After the war the fact that Germany was economically on its knees also helped, as that was England's strongest economical opponent. So, for a short while, it looked as if England (or the UK) ruled the world again.

To my amazement good old Auntie - the BBC - still frequently offers a vivid display of the UK's greatness - in the 1950s... we see the Comet fly again, Rolls Royce being of importance again and we hear how the Brits saved the world. In the 1950s.

But things were soon changing: the Germans got help (Marshall plan, allies in the Cold War etc.) and did what Germans do: work. So, in just a short while the German economy became an important factor again. Also, Brits were slowly climbing the ladder of civilisation too: trying to ditch the class society, building a more equal society - a long tradition of masters and servants was to be abandoned, providing a more equal playing field for all. But also resulting in more expensive labour, people demanding rights they did not have before. In short: the Brits lost their temporary advantage.

This became very clear when in the 1960s the EU became quite succesful. The Brits lost their advantage, finally their GDP even dropped 10 percent below that of the (then) 6 EU nations. The Brits wanted to be part of the EU, but French president De Gaulle - perhaps a visionair in this regard - did not want the UK in and vetoed their application. De Gaulle said that the Brits had a "deep-seated hostility" towards European construction. In short: they wanted to get in as long as it suited them but out as soon as they had sucked the system dry beyond repair. Perhaps he was right. De Gaulle said London showed a "lack of interest" in the Common Market and would require a "radical transformation" before joining the EEC. "The present Common Market is incompatible with the economy, as it now stands, of Britain," he said. He went on to list a number of aspects of Britain's economy, from working practices to agriculture, which he said made Britain incompatible with Europe.

Only when De Gaulle left office and Pompidou became France's president, the Brits, whom had been calling and ringing and leaving messages and flowers for decades - were allowed in.

So, the UK was NOT doing fine at all and only when they joined the EU became roughly average again.

Don't make the UK into something it is not. You are the heirs of a proud Empire and a very rich culture - I sincerely enjoy it and as an European am willing and able to help you protect it as it has great value. But the Empire is dead. Your only economical hope lies in being simply an average member of the European Union. Nothing special either, in fact, we should not have you dictate your own rules anymore sooner or later. Learn to drive right I'd say