UK Referendum 23 June 2016 - Will it be an EU BREXIT or Not?

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: 83Liberty

Excellent points, hopefully a pro 'remain' advocate will respond and explain to us why we would be better in the EU than out?

Concur on both your comments!

Yes would be nice to get some really good ground arguments relative to the benefits of remaining in the EU without re-iterating the fear mongering mush of those in the remain camp. Any takers?

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: grainofsand


Nope, EFTA membership still involves free movement of people in the EU.
A sovereign UK is the only way to regain control over immigration and end the discriminatory rules which apply to anyone outside of Europe.

I really think that would require an explanation and verification on a severance

from the EU as Free trading is a misnomer if it applies to people too?

EU = European Union

EFTA = European Free Trading Association?

I hope a pro 'remain' person can explain that to me.

The silence from that quarter has been deafening!!

Yes would have expected someone to make some really strong non speculative arguments for remaining or at least a more honest perspective.

PS: I will update the ATS voting numbers over the weekend.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: eletheia

Nope, EFTA membership still involves free movement of people in the EU.
A sovereign UK is the only way to regain control over immigration and end the discriminatory rules which apply to anyone outside of Europe.

As I said, why demand high standards for the visa chasing qualified Australian engineer, when an unqualified Hungarian rapist can catch a train here no questions asked?

I hope a pro 'remain' person can explain that to me.

Erm I think you are missing the point of the EU. It's about the free movement of labour and capital within the borders of the EU. Exactly the same as the free movement of the same between the countries of the UK (including Isle of Man and Channel Islands each of which has their own government). If you wish to move to southern France and work as plumber down there you can do so freely, no visas no hassles. Likewise if you wish to move to southern Scotland and work as a plumber there you can do so freely, no visas no hassles. Some people and companies enjoy the hassle free freedom, some, like you , see it as an open door for the scum of the earth to come here (note how you only concentrate on the Hungarian rapist coming here as opposed to the equally likely English rapist moving to hungary).

Sitting opposite me at work is a guy from Portugal. He just decided he fancied coming to Scotland and work here for a while. He works his wife works. One day he will go back to Portugal. Funnily enough there are people in Scotland who go abroad for the same reasons and one day (might) come back. The weather is better abroad so that is less likely. My Portuguese colleague complains about the Romanians who go to Portugal and cram flats with 15-20 people in a 2 bed flat......Oh look the same problem that apparently ONLY occurs to us. Portugal does not want to leave the EU to solve that problem. Remember Morecambe bay and the cockle pickers? Chinese immigrants crammed into flat. I'm pretty sure China is not a member of the EU.

Basically we will always have problems with immigration in or out of the EU. Wake up. We are not alone in the world in having these problems. Look at the US, they are not in the EU. Immigration is not an EU induced problem, it might affect how it pans out and the details may vary and countries of origin may vary BUT there will always be a problem of migration whilst the world is in such an unequal state and everyone everywhere can see how everyone else everywhere else is living. Fix world inequality, stop meddling in other countries problems, stop supporting nasty dictators for economic convenience and migration problems will go away.

a reply to: yorkshirelad

I understand completely the point of the EU, and I do not subscribe to it.
You have your vote and I have mine.

originally posted by: yorkshirelad
Erm I think you are missing the point of the EU. It's about the free movement of labour and capital within the borders of the EU. Exactly the same as the free movement of the same between the countries of the UK (including Isle of Man and Channel Islands each of which has their own government). If you wish to move to southern France and work as plumber down there you can do so freely, no visas no hassles. Likewise if you wish to move to southern Scotland and work as a plumber there you can do so freely, no visas no hassles. Some people and companies enjoy the hassle free freedom

I have cousins who went to live and work in France and Spain before the EU.

They are still there to this day with their families. They had visa's and passports,

How major an obstacle is a passport?? Every one I know has one.... There is a huge

world outside of the EU where you need a passport, it is one way of keeping

undesirables OUT.

With the current immigration problem there is no ability to know where someone

has come from or their ages, where 20 odd year olds are trying to pass for 14/15

years old.

A passport hassle? .... only if you have something to hide.

Some, like you , see it as an open door for the scum of the earth to come here (note how you only concentrate on the Hungarian rapist coming here as opposed to the equally likely English rapist moving to hungary)

.

What about the rapist's Germany and Sweden are currently having to deal with??

Having a passport might have kept that scum out. As it is they can come over here

and we could not deport them due to EU laws.

Sitting opposite me at work is a guy from Portugal. He just decided he fancied coming to Scotland and work here for a while. He works his wife works. One day he will go back to Portugal. Funnily enough there are people in Scotland who go abroad for the same reasons and one day (might) come back.

I don't suppose the need for something as minor as a passport would have stopped

him from coming anyway?

My Portuguese colleague complains about the Romanians who go to Portugal and cram flats with 15-20 people in a 2 bed flat......Oh look the same problem that apparently ONLY occurs to us. Portugal does not want to leave the EU to solve that problem

That's their prerogative..... doesn't mean that we in the UK have to put up with it.

Portugal is not the fifth largest economy in the world they may need the EU

The UK doesn't..... more likely the EU has more need of the largesse of UK!! LOL!

Basically we will always have problems with immigration in or out of the EU. Wake up. We are not alone in the world in having these problems. Look at the US, they are not in the EU.

Yes look at the US .... look also at Canada and Australia the have control of their

own borders unlike the UK inside of the EU.

Immigration is not an EU induced problem,

REALLY? Wasn't it Angela Merkel inviting all and sundry into Europe?

a reply to: yorkshirelad

Immigration is not an EU induced problem, it might affect how it pans out and the details may vary and countries of origin may vary BUT there will always be a problem of migration whilst the world is in such an unequal state and everyone everywhere can see how everyone else everywhere else is living.

Stats from an official source, up until 2010, actually show that the number of EU citizens coming to live/work in the UK is four times more than the number of UK citizens leaving to live/work in the EU.







As you can see, Spain is an exception but it does not influence the overall picture greatly.

Link

Something interesting I found out today from a neighbour.

We have a massive Goa'n population in the large town I live in, the largest outside of India by all accounts.

It turns out that when the Portuguese gave Goa back to India they put in a clause that said if any Goa'n ever wanted to move to Portugal they would have full rights and benefits and a passport if they chose. Because we are in the EU this means that the same applies to any EU member nation and as such there is a massive flood of low educated non English speaking people flooding to the UK because of it.

Most of them work in minimum wage jobs but it makes you wonder?

To make it even better as I was there there was a know on the door from a local councillor candidate knocking on the door because he knew he was from Goa and asking for his support in an upcoming election.

He asked about there policies and they said that they had none as such but assumed he would vote for them as they were also from Goa and that there were enough Goan's to elect a councillor due to numbers.

He told them to sod off and come back if they actually had some policies.

An article from the Political commentator in todays Daily Mail

Social media have their say on the *remain* campaign ... You cant fool all of
the people all of the time, especially on social media.

The British stay in Europe campaigners are spending hundreds of thousands of
pounds on fb. advertising aimed at persuading people to vote to staying in the EU
But have created a massive reaction they didn't bargain for.

The adverts are promoting a flood of angry and intelligent arguments for
LEAVING the EU.

Yesterday I was staggered by the over whelming responses from people speaking
up for Britain.
The following are a selection of peoples outspoken views, each touching on a
different reason.

#I don't recognise my own city because of what your ilk have done to
it during the last couple of decades. It isn't just about the economy, its about
more than that like trying to put a halt to this mass immigration madness.

#London wants no part of your technocratic dictatorship, thank you
very much the UK wants OUR elected representatives making decisions on OUR
behalf in OUR own democratically elected Parliament. Its something called
FREEDOM.
If the rest of Europe wishes to be enslaved by a statist dictatorship .... so be it.

#I am not European I am English through and through. I never signed
up to being classed as European, my passport says *British*

#The EU is made up of unelected crooks and failed politicians. I say
we take this opportunity to jump of the sinking ship, freeing ourselves from the
corrupt institution while we can.

#Project Fear would have you believe London will die if we leave the EU.
London is over 1000 years old, and its future will not be dictated to by anyone
other than Londoners

#I have no problem with being part of a trading bloc. What I do have a
problem with is being dictated to by an unelected and unaccountable cabal. No
one has the right to tell me what light bulbs I can buy, or how powerful my
vaccume cleaner or oven can be.
Let alone how many people can come to our very over crowded island.

#I hate the EU and think all Europe should leave this failing, inward
looking, prosperity destroying 1950's throw back political project.

#Its strange how the Americans, Chinese, Russians, Japanese Australians
all seem able to work in London without having any formal trade and political union.

#How ever did we survive before we were made part of the EU - which
we didn't vote to join. We voted to join a 'common market'.

#Londoners are part of the 'world'. Europe is not the EU. And frankly if
you love diversity, and traditions, and cultures around Europe, you should hate the
standardisation and harmonisation of the EU.

#London is and always has been a financial hub, that is why the EU want
us to stay so that they can cream of a slice of every financial deal from the city of
London, if they do not get enough from us already.

#My question is "Where is the democracy? the EU is a political organisation
led by unelected, fat cat politicians paid by us taxpayers.

#We want to TRADE as in the old days, without the deliberate red tape
and with the right to govern ourselves.

#Europe is a continent ... and the EU is a political body, we can leave the
EU and still be part of Europe.
We originally joined a trade organisation which has morphed into a political body.

#If you think the city that invented modern banking and the stock exchange
and modern money cant stand up on its own, you're mistaken

#Its time to LEAVE. The Germans are just trying to conquer us, not using
tanks but using banks.
Remember why there were two world wars....and who started them....


And there are more ..... but I'm sure you get the gist? I think David Cameron should
take note.

I don't think his political career will survive the *OUT* vote.

originally posted by: eletheia
An article from the Political commentator in todays Daily Mail

Social media have their say on the *remain* campaign ... You cant fool all of
the people all of the time, especially on social media.

The British stay in Europe campaigners are spending hundreds of thousands of
pounds on fb. advertising aimed at persuading people to vote to staying in the EU
But have created a massive reaction they didn't bargain for.

The adverts are promoting a flood of angry and intelligent arguments for
LEAVING the EU.

Yesterday I was staggered by the over whelming responses from people speaking
up for Britain.
The following are a selection of peoples outspoken views, each touching on a
different reason.

#I don't recognise my own city because of what your ilk have done to
it during the last couple of decades. It isn't just about the economy, its about
more than that like trying to put a halt to this mass immigration madness.

#London wants no part of your technocratic dictatorship, thank you
very much the UK wants OUR elected representatives making decisions on OUR
behalf in OUR own democratically elected Parliament. Its something called
FREEDOM.
If the rest of Europe wishes to be enslaved by a statist dictatorship .... so be it.

#I am not European I am English through and through. I never signed
up to being classed as European, my passport says *British*

#The EU is made up of unelected crooks and failed politicians. I say
we take this opportunity to jump of the sinking ship, freeing ourselves from the
corrupt institution while we can.

#Project Fear would have you believe London will die if we leave the EU.
London is over 1000 years old, and its future will not be dictated to by anyone
other than Londoners

#I have no problem with being part of a trading bloc. What I do have a
problem with is being dictated to by an unelected and unaccountable cabal. No
one has the right to tell me what light bulbs I can buy, or how powerful my
vaccume cleaner or oven can be.
Let alone how many people can come to our very over crowded island.

#I hate the EU and think all Europe should leave this failing, inward
looking, prosperity destroying 1950's throw back political project.

#Its strange how the Americans, Chinese, Russians, Japanese Australians
all seem able to work in London without having any formal trade and political union.

#How ever did we survive before we were made part of the EU - which
we didn't vote to join. We voted to join a 'common market'.

#Londoners are part of the 'world'. Europe is not the EU. And frankly if
you love diversity, and traditions, and cultures around Europe, you should hate the
standardisation and harmonisation of the EU.

#London is and always has been a financial hub, that is why the EU want
us to stay so that they can cream of a slice of every financial deal from the city of
London, if they do not get enough from us already.

#My question is "Where is the democracy? the EU is a political organisation
led by unelected, fat cat politicians paid by us taxpayers.

#We want to TRADE as in the old days, without the deliberate red tape
and with the right to govern ourselves.

#Europe is a continent ... and the EU is a political body, we can leave the
EU and still be part of Europe.
We originally joined a trade organisation which has morphed into a political body.

#If you think the city that invented modern banking and the stock exchange
and modern money cant stand up on its own, you're mistaken

#Its time to LEAVE. The Germans are just trying to conquer us, not using
tanks but using banks.
Remember why there were two world wars....and who started them....


And there are more ..... but I'm sure you get the gist? I think David Cameron should
take note.

I don't think his political career will survive the *OUT* vote.

I find it hard to disagree with these sentiments as I suspect the majority of UK voters will!
"Bring Britain Home" comes to mind! Its not arrogance but pride!

So let me get this straight.

British Nationalism is fine and dandy. Proud. Independent. Quite right.

Scottish Nationalism is stupid. Narrow minded. Yawn inducing.

Somebody explain the difference please.

And just to repeat

If your voting in Scotland (doesn't matter your nationality) please vote to stay in, that is remain in EU.

If your voting elsewhere in rUK please vote to leave EU

Thank you.

originally posted by: bigyin
So let me get this straight.
British Nationalism is fine and dandy. Proud. Independent. Quite right.
Scottish Nationalism is stupid. Narrow minded. Yawn inducing.
Somebody explain the difference please.
Thank you.

*Scottish* Nationalism Refers to the Scots only.


*British* Nationalism Refers to English/Scots/Welsh/Irish

originally posted by: bigyin
So let me get this straight.

British Nationalism is fine and dandy. Proud. Independent. Quite right.

Scottish Nationalism is stupid. Narrow minded. Yawn inducing.

Somebody explain the difference please.

I don't believe anyone has said Scottish Nationalism is either stupid, narrow minded or yawn inducing.

Scotland leaving the UK at the current moment when the oil price is so low would be stupid.
Scotland leaving the UK when 55% of the Scottish people voted to remain in the UK would be narrow minded.
Scottish people continually banging on about another referendum when you just had one is getting a bit boring.

a reply to: 83Liberty

Absolutely agreed.
And I'd be more than happy for the 45% of auld Scottish whingebags to do one from the UK.

Current status of the ATS vote after 53 pages is as follows:

%
Eligible IN = 17.57
Eligible OUT = 62.16
Eligible UNDEC = 12.16

InEligible IN = 0.00
InEligible OUT = 8.11
InEligible UNDEC = 0.00
Overall IN OUT UNDEC
% 100.00 % 17.57 70.27 12.16

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite
Current status of the ATS vote after 53 pages is as follows:

%
Eligible IN = 17.57
Eligible OUT = 62.16
Eligible UNDEC = 12.16

Am I being thick or something, that all adds up to 91.89, so what happened to the other 8.11?

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite
Current status of the ATS vote after 53 pages is as follows:

%
Eligible IN = 17.57
Eligible OUT = 62.16
Eligible UNDEC = 12.16

Am I being thick or something, that all adds up to 91.89, so what happened to the other 8.11?

Sorry to say, Yes. But don't be offended.

Eligible IN = 17.57
Eligible OUT = 62.16
Eligible UNDEC = 12.16
InEligible IN = 0.00
InEligible OUT = 8.11
InEligible UNDEC = 0.00

17.57+62.16+12.16+8.11 = 100%

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Lol, no offence taken!
I assumed a separate 100% for the 'eligible' voters.
I'd prefer that to be honest as the ineligible are as irrelevant as EU citizens who live in the UK.
Nice one taking the time in this thread though

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Lol, no offence taken!
I assumed a separate 100% for the 'eligible' voters.
I'd prefer that to be honest as the ineligible are as irrelevant as EU citizens who live in the UK.
Nice one taking the time in this thread though

Then %'s for the eligible voters is 62.16 Leave, 17.57 Stay and 12.16 Undecided.

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Lol, no offence taken!
I assumed a separate 100% for the 'eligible' voters.
I'd prefer that to be honest as the ineligible are as irrelevant as EU citizens who live in the UK.
Nice one taking the time in this thread though

Then %'s for the eligible voters is 62.16 Leave, 17.57 Stay and 12.16 Undecided.

That's still 91.89, it doesn't add up to 100%
What is the 'eligible' vote broken down to a 100% figure?

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Lol, no offence taken!
I assumed a separate 100% for the 'eligible' voters.
I'd prefer that to be honest as the ineligible are as irrelevant as EU citizens who live in the UK.
Nice one taking the time in this thread though

Then %'s for the eligible voters is 62.16 Leave, 17.57 Stay and 12.16 Undecided.

That's still 91.89, it doesn't add up to 100%
What is the 'eligible' vote broken down to a 100% figure?

91.89% of overall voters were eligible. Which means from purely an eligible perspective that Leave, Stay & Undecided % would each be 8.11 % of their vote higher. e.g. Leave = 62.16 x 108.11 % so approx. 67%, Stay = 17.57 x 108.11% so approx. 20%, Undecided = 12.16 x 108.11%. so approx. 13%.

Among eligible the Leave vote is approx. 67%. If including non-eligible the Leave vote is 70%.