UK Referendum 23 June 2016 - Will it be an EU BREXIT or Not?

originally posted by: Flavian

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite


And please don't hijack the thread. Its an ATS member poll. And would know that if you read the thread properly. But obviously you didn't before sticking your hijacking nose in!

Why the hostility in your response? Frankly that is completely unnecessary. Is it because the polls don't support your views?

However, in order to "satisfy" your needs, i vote in. Luckily for me, so do the majority in this country, as it stands at the moment.

I do repeat the question again though, where are these polls that show the out camp being ahead? Because i can't find any. If you can back it up, great (please do so). If not, perhaps you should rethink your hostile attitude.

Don't you think its annoying when someone attempts to hijack your thread and ask you for sources which is self evident in the thread if you had read it! And my attitude is not hostile but corrective!!

Have a nice day and thank you for your vote. And good look with your expectation or hope! Although I do feel its a done deal and we will hopefully be OUT!

Current Status after 4 pages.

%
Eligible IN = 15.79
Eligible OUT = 57.89
Eligible UNDEC = 15.79

InEligible IN = 0.00
InEligible OUT = 10.53
InEligible UNDEC = 0.00
Overall IN OUT UNDEC
% 100.00 % 15.79 68.42 15.79

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

The EU is actually doing fine; in fact it's doing so well, that a lot of other nations feel threatened by it. They try to weaken the Union - first they try to stop the growth of the EU for example by blocking the membership of new member states, then by trying to gain new influence in former Sovjet nations, then by dividing the rest of Europe against itself, finally by trying to break the bonds between even English nations.

Be aware of the propaganda - and choose wisely. England has nothing to loose - but everything to gain.

Still undecided after a lot of researching (ignoring politicians) although Brendan O’Neill's article yesterday has me swaying more towards Brexit. The issue is about democracy.

The EU is a union not of peoples, but of elites. It has in recent decades become the sphere in which national elites, feeling ever more estranged from their national electorates, have effectively taken refuge. In pooling their national sovereignties into the EU, our national rulers absolve themselves of the responsibility to have tough, testy debates with us about various political and social matters, in favour of seeing such issues discussed and resolved by the commissioners and self-styled experts of this rarefied zone.

The EU is not any kind of internationalist or cosmopolitan project, as its supporters claim. Nor is it a conspiracy of French and German blaggards to do over decent Blighty, as its detractors insist. Rather, it is the institution that has grown from and been constantly fed by national elites’ own growing feeling of exhaustion with democracy – and with democracy’s engine: the demos – be it politicians who would rather an aloof court decided something they haven’t got the stomach to debate or advocacy campaigners who agitate for an EC regulation because nothing repulses them more than the idea of trying to win over the plebs of their own nations.

All those things that the Remain lobby claims will be better if we stay in the EU – workers’ rights, freedom of movement, anti-terror security measures – are things that should be discussed and decided by us. To say the EU does ‘good things’, even though it does them without any real democratic oversight, is to support a benevolent tyranny. A tyranny enacted not to crush us but to save us – the worst kind.

Love democracy? Then leave the EU

Well worth reading with some interesting comments below the article.

I'd vote 'out', you dont want to be a member of some European super state that is solely dedicated to big banks/companies and where all decisions are made by a commission nobody voted for, not to even speak of the ESM, which has absolute immunity while there is zero parliamentary control over it.

I am aware that Cameron kinda brokered a deal that guarantees the UK not becoming part of said superstate in the future, but I wouldn't trust those politicians half as far as I can throw them. If the UK stays in, I'm sure there will be another vote in the future to change that superstate membership.

Of course, if the UK votes out and if that is actually accepted without repeating the vote right away until the 'right' outcome like in the past, I'm sure there will be a vote in the future to remedy that as well.

Sadly we don't live in a democracy, otherwise my 'country' would get to vote, tool.

originally posted by: Morrad
Still undecided after a lot of researching (ignoring politicians) although Brendan O’Neill's article yesterday has me swaying more towards Brexit. The issue is about democracy.

The EU is a union not of peoples, but of elites. It has in recent decades become the sphere in which national elites, feeling ever more estranged from their national electorates, have effectively taken refuge. In pooling their national sovereignties into the EU, our national rulers absolve themselves of the responsibility to have tough, testy debates with us about various political and social matters, in favour of seeing such issues discussed and resolved by the commissioners and self-styled experts of this rarefied zone.

The EU is not any kind of internationalist or cosmopolitan project, as its supporters claim. Nor is it a conspiracy of French and German blaggards to do over decent Blighty, as its detractors insist. Rather, it is the institution that has grown from and been constantly fed by national elites’ own growing feeling of exhaustion with democracy – and with democracy’s engine: the demos – be it politicians who would rather an aloof court decided something they haven’t got the stomach to debate or advocacy campaigners who agitate for an EC regulation because nothing repulses them more than the idea of trying to win over the plebs of their own nations.

All those things that the Remain lobby claims will be better if we stay in the EU – workers’ rights, freedom of movement, anti-terror security measures – are things that should be discussed and decided by us. To say the EU does ‘good things’, even though it does them without any real democratic oversight, is to support a benevolent tyranny. A tyranny enacted not to crush us but to save us – the worst kind.

Love democracy? Then leave the EU

Well worth reading with some interesting comments below the article.

Not surprised. The EU is a big con and very little will change for the UK economy whilst we get to determine our own destiny and laws. Not to mention protect our borders. Taking our country back.

The problem is that we have the Tories in charge and all of the workers rights that have been established over the last 23 years as part of our membership of the EU, will probably be ripped to pieces.
Things like the working time directive, minimum paid leave protection, paid maternity and paternity leave, equal pay, anti-discrimination law and so on - the Tories would definitely start to dismantle these as they are doing to the NHS.

I think I may have to vote IN just because I do not trust the Tories....

I think I may have to vote IN just because I do not trust the Tories....

Lol at the irony of a Tory Prime Minister providing you with the vote and also advocating that you should vote to stay in.

Thanks for the early morning chuckle!

originally posted by: Morrad
Still undecided after a lot of researching (ignoring politicians) although Brendan O’Neill's article yesterday has me swaying more towards Brexit. The issue is about democracy.

Sometimes I feel like screaming *THERE WAS A LIFE BEFORE THE EU*

There is no way to make comparisons as to whether we would or would

not be any better off or less successful had we not joined the EU.

I have come to the conclusion that the older generation are more like

to vote *out* and the younger to vote *in.* Could that possibly be

because the older generation have lived through both while the younger

generation have only lived through being tied to the EU? and sometimes

its better the devil you know than the devil you don't?


The UK has been so tied up in red tape for so long by the EU that they

have lost their ambition and the will to live and are now half the

country that they ever were, they have lost ambition and enthusiasm

and are no longer capable of the ability to make their own

decisions on how to survive or rise to the occasion despite hardships as

they did 100 years ago.

IF we stay in the EU we will be stifled and worse of than we were before

the referendum. Unlike the prodical child the shackles will be tighter

and cut into our souls so as to teach us a lesson, in the same manner as

any sadistic *master* would.


*THERE WAS A LIFE BEFORE THE EU* I was there

originally posted by: blupblup



I think I may have to vote IN just because I do not trust the Tories....

But you trust all those faceless eurocrats



At least the Tories are the devil we know !!!

originally posted by: blupblup
The problem is that we have the Tories in charge and all of the workers rights that have been established over the last 23 years as part of our membership of the EU, will probably be ripped to pieces.
Things like the working time directive, minimum paid leave protection, paid maternity and paternity leave, equal pay, anti-discrimination law and so on - the Tories would definitely start to dismantle these as they are doing to the NHS.

I think I may have to vote IN just because I do not trust the Tories....

Unwise decision. The UK people would not allow them to do that. They would have a revolution on there hands if they did that on top of everything else they have done. So your reason for IN is an error in judgement me thinks. But its your vote.

It comes down to petite pois or sprouts! Grow some sprouts and help the people take there country back!

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

The EU is actually doing fine; in fact it's doing so well, that a lot of other nations feel threatened by it. They try to weaken the Union - first they try to stop the growth of the EU for example by blocking the membership of new member states, then by trying to gain new influence in former Sovjet nations, then by dividing the rest of Europe against itself, finally by trying to break the bonds between even English nations.

Be aware of the propaganda - and choose wisely. England has nothing to loose - but everything to gain.

You are kidding yourself on this one. Half the countries in the EU are practically bankrupt, others have huge debts, others cant generate enough GDP. The EU is already on the verge of collapse and another economic crash will bring it tumbling down. And there maybe one round the corner. The grapevine from friends in the City is that the banks have more trouble on the horizon! Take head. And if we stay in the EU and there is another crash then we will suffer far more than if we were out. Not to mention what it will cost the UK. IN EU is no democracy for UK. OUT is!

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: blupblup



I think I may have to vote IN just because I do not trust the Tories....

But you trust all those faceless eurocrats

At least the Tories are the devil we know !!!

Good Point! So BlupBlup you trust the EU more than the UK Gov. Mistake!!

I know the Tories are anus but the EU Gov. The UK can be strong if it is in control of its own destiny!

I definitely get the feeling older voters are for out and younger voters in. When I watched Question Time last week it came across like that.

I am nearly 50 so remember days gone by before the EU. We had our priblems , there was high unemployment, strikes etc but life seemed easiet and there was more social coherence,

I think the young have been brainwashed from being young. They have grown up overly protected and not able to voice opinions or listen to opinions without being offended, they have been taught not to be competitive etc. They think of themselves as European whereas I dont think the older generation do.

I have a friend who is half my age and she said yesterday she doesnt really understand it all and doesnt usually vote. I said being honest when I was in my twenties I would have probably been the same, it is only as I have got older I have taken an interest.

I spoke to her and explained the pros and cons and she then said she thought she would vote out. I said I would make sure she uses that vote on the day. I think that is all we can do try and educate the younger generation and let them see how things could be.

I dont think voting out will be the easy option, far from it, I think there will be a few years of turmoil but at least there will be a bright future at the end of it instead of going down a deeper and deeper black hole with only bleakness at the end!a reply to: eletheia

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite
You are kidding yourself on this one. Half the countries in the EU are practically bankrupt, others have huge debts,

Huge debts are common in almost if not all nations. Like, for example, the UK: as of Q1 2015 UK government debt amounted to £1.56 trillion. [Source: wikipedia]. That won't change by a brexit. Yes, there are economical weak nations amongst the 28 that make up the EU but the total of these 28 nations is the largest economy in the world. When you break an arm, you don't rip off the arm, but you plaster it and wait for it to heal. Also remember why the UK joined the EU in the first place: because the UK was becoming an economical weak country in relation with the other EU nations: the UK needed the EU's help. In 1950, UK’s per capita GDP was stil a third larger than that of the top 6 EU countries, mostly due to the spin-off the war economy provided. But that effect wore off, alternatives like the Commonwealth and free trade with other nations proved to be unsuccesful and by 1973, the UK's per capite GDP was about 10% below; then the UK joined the EU and the UK's GDP has been comparatively stable ever since. It worked allright.

The EU is already on the verge of collapse

O, sure. And so is the rest of the world, that has nothing to do with the membership of the EU. Actually you'd be better off in the EU if the world economies collapsed (even further) as it would give you access to the worlds biggest economy at favourable terms. Make no mistake: during a collapse, nations tend to take care of their own first, and the EU can be seen as as nation in that respect. If we have need for meat, we will simply not buy expensive British meat, actually we will tax it before it can even reach our markets. That's forbidden now, but not if the UK leaves us. If we have need for a car, we will not buy a Rolls, but an Opel or VW. If we have need for labour, we will not hire expensive British cobblers, but inexpensive Polish or Bulgarian ones (as you do now yourselves). And so on and so on. What, may I ask, has Britain to offer that we on the continent can't produce ourselves - but cheaper and probably better? Give ONE example!

and another economic crash will bring it tumbling down. And there maybe one round the corner. The grapevine from friends in the City is that the banks have more trouble on the horizon! Take head. And if we stay in the EU and there is another crash then we will suffer far more than if we were out. Not to mention what it will cost the UK. IN EU is no democracy for UK. OUT is!

Yes, there may be - and if history teaches us anything: there will be - another economic crash in the making. They are deliberate. They are part of the scheme that eventually ensures that the world's wealth is concentrated over just a few people. That won't change by leaving or joining the EU.

What will change though is your daily life. It remains to be seen how long your "independence" of the EU would be felt as such: the same rules to access the EU markets would still apply, but now you would not have a say in the matter anymore. Actually, perhaps that's the best thing of a brexit: that the Brits can't force their overly UK centric world view on the other 27 nations anymore. In case of a brexit your choices are restricted to a) deal with us on our terms, or b) get lost. Take your pick.

originally posted by: anxiouswens
I definitely get the feeling older voters are for out and younger voters in. When I watched Question Time last week it came across like that.

I am nearly 50 so remember days gone by before the EU. We had our priblems , there was high unemployment, strikes etc but life seemed easiet and there was more social coherence,

I think the young have been brainwashed from being young. They have grown up overly protected and not able to voice opinions or listen to opinions without being offended, they have been taught not to be competitive etc. They think of themselves as European whereas I dont think the older generation do.

I have a friend who is half my age and she said yesterday she doesnt really understand it all and doesnt usually vote. I said being honest when I was in my twenties I would have probably been the same, it is only as I have got older I have taken an interest.

I spoke to her and explained the pros and cons and she then said she thought she would vote out. I said I would make sure she uses that vote on the day. I think that is all we can do try and educate the younger generation and let them see how things could be.

I dont think voting out will be the easy option, far from it, I think there will be a few years of turmoil but at least there will be a bright future at the end of it instead of going down a deeper and deeper black hole with only bleakness at the end!a reply to: eletheia

I am 55 and do concur with what you say. Either longer term benefit by voting OUT and suffer any early pain when we already have pain or vote IN and end up in an expensive black whole and possibly suffer an EU crash with another 2m EU migrants in the UK with all the problems and impacts that will bring.

I'm watching Cameron right now talking to folk in Slough, telling them that Slough is responsible for 2 or 3% of UK GDP. He says that 3m jobs are at stake which is a BIG LIE! If we stay in we will be giving 2m jobs to EU migrants and all the school places and housing we need for our kids. etc etc. He's a f..k..g liar.

Also, the only ones to benefit from continued EU membership are the top 25% of the UK population. There is no benefit for 70% of UK folk. The benefit if we vote out will mean more places of everything because of less migrants. And the streets will be safer at night than they are now. The numbers of crimes being committed by migrants (legal or not) is growing and alarming. Its OK if you live behind electric fences because 10 years from now you will need them.

Another import factor (as highlighted earlier) is DEMOCRACY.

It is apparent to me that the longer UK remain in the EU the lesser the democracy for UK folk. And until we once again determine all our laws in-house then UK democracy will not grow.

originally posted by: anxiouswens
I definitely get the feeling older voters are for out and younger voters in. When I watched Question Time last week it came across like that.

I am nearly 50 so remember days gone by before the EU. We had our priblems , there was high unemployment, strikes etc but life seemed easiet and there was more social coherence,

I have children older than you!! LOL!

I think the young have been brainwashed from being young. They have grown up overly protected and not able to voice opinions or listen to opinions without being offended, they have been taught not to be competitive etc. They think of themselves as European whereas I dont think the older generation do.

The lack of competition .... BIG MISTAKE ... When everyone is

a winner, they fail to learn how to pick themselves up. I am a

great believer in 'being successful is great' but the fact is that

we learn more from our mistakes

I said being honest when I was in my twenties I would have probably been the same, it is only as I have got older I have taken an interest.

It is only when we start to take charge of our own destinies that

we start to take notice of where the money that is missing from our

salaries is going. LOL! My children were on the housing

ladder at the same age that hers were at uni!!

I dont think voting out will be the easy option, far from it, I think there will be a few years of turmoil but at least there will be a bright future at the end of it instead of going down a deeper and deeper black hole with only bleakness at the end!

Well you cant make an omelette without cracking eggs.

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: anxiouswens
I definitely get the feeling older voters are for out and younger voters in. When I watched Question Time last week it came across like that.

I am nearly 50 so remember days gone by before the EU. We had our priblems , there was high unemployment, strikes etc but life seemed easiet and there was more social coherence,

I have children older than you!! LOL!

I think the young have been brainwashed from being young. They have grown up overly protected and not able to voice opinions or listen to opinions without being offended, they have been taught not to be competitive etc. They think of themselves as European whereas I dont think the older generation do.

The lack of competition .... BIG MISTAKE ... When everyone is

a winner, they fail to learn how to pick themselves up. I am a

great believer in 'being successful is great' but the fact is that

we learn more from our mistakes

I said being honest when I was in my twenties I would have probably been the same, it is only as I have got older I have taken an interest.

It is only when we start to take charge of our own destinies that

we start to take notice of where the money that is missing from our

salaries is going. LOL! My children were on the housing

ladder at the same age that hers were at uni!!

I dont think voting out will be the easy option, far from it, I think there will be a few years of turmoil but at least there will be a bright future at the end of it instead of going down a deeper and deeper black hole with only bleakness at the end!

Well you cant make an omelette without cracking eggs.

Nor can you develop your country's democracy in the interests of its people if your rules and laws are decided by other countries because their interests come first. BASIC and inarguable!!

originally posted by: ForteanOrg


When you break an arm, you don't rip off the arm, but you plaster it and wait for it to heal.

Sometimes your adversities can lead to success... If Oscar Pistorius

hadn't had his legs amputated he would never have been an athlete.

Also remember why the UK joined the EU in the first place:

As a trading co-op. Not for political reasons or to be part of the

USE (United States of Europe) or a satellite of Germany. We had

fought two world wars with them in the previous 30 years, that said

why would the UK want a closer union?

Actually you'd be better off in the EU

That is for the UK citizens to decide.

if the world economies collapsed (even further) as it would give you access to the worlds biggest economy at favourable terms

And you think the EU is immune to that? In a world wide collapse

every nation would be affected.

If we have need for a car, we will not buy a Rolls, but an Opel or VW

LOL!! IF you can afford a Rolls you wont settle for an Opel or VW

Isn't VW German for the ordinary peoples car (folks wagon)

What, may I ask, has Britain to offer that we on the continent can't produce ourselves - but cheaper and probably better? Give ONE example!

Don't under estimate the tenacity of the British.... they do well

when their backs against the wall!!

What will change though is your daily life. It remains to be seen how long your "independence" of the EU would be felt as such: the same rules to access the EU markets would still apply, but now you would not have a say in the matter anymore. Actually, perhaps that's the best thing of a brexit: that the Brits can't force their overly UK centric world view on the other 27 nations anymore.

27 nations ?? There's a whole world out there, the sun and moon

don't revolve around the EU.